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  • [00:00:43] * Topic is 'http://beagleboard.org/chat has a guide on how to ask questions and links to the logs | never ask to ask, just ask | be patient | pastebin a boot log | http://ahsoftware.de/Beaglebone_Black_Boot_explained.svg | http://beagleboard.org/latest-images | http://beagleboard.org/Support/bone101 | direct bonescript/node.js questions to #beagle-bonescript | books: http://bit.ly/bbb-books'
  • [00:00:43] * Set by KotH!~attila@erica.kinali.ch on Wed Jul 15 13:55:07 UTC 2015
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  • [00:18:19] <veremit> ah to those zmatt, jkridner with Mime-type issues .. this was the one I've seen for many binary files .. application/octet-stream
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  • [01:27:52] <yates> does the bbb dram interface have to be initialized (e.g., by some part of the uboot or linux kernel startup) before accessing it?
  • [01:28:08] <zmatt> yes
  • [01:28:19] <zmatt> it's normally done by u-boot
  • [01:29:06] <yates> zmatt: have you ever done it in assembly? I want to extend the led tester to run a few simples DRAM tests.
  • [01:29:20] <yates> s/simples/simple/
  • [01:30:03] <zmatt> it basically just involves writing the right config constants to some registers
  • [01:31:31] <yates> ok, i guess the easiest path is to check that area of uboot source ?
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  • [01:31:51] <yates> or i could just read the trm.
  • [01:32:03] <zmatt> not sure if I'd call that easy since it's kind of annoying to track down the ingredients scattered across multiple files, but yeah
  • [01:32:50] <yates> yeah, that's a good caveat...
  • [01:33:01] <zmatt> the TRM is of limited use, especially since the timing values you need to configure are actually board-dependent (although ddr3-800 is slow enough that you still have significant
  • [01:33:06] <zmatt> margin for error)
  • [01:33:21] <yates> is ddr-800 what's on the bbb?
  • [01:33:25] <yates> ddr3-800?
  • [01:33:36] <zmatt> it's the max it officially supports yes
  • [01:33:46] <zmatt> the ram chip itself is capable of much higher speeds
  • [01:34:13] <zmatt> basically you can't actually buy "ddr3-800" ram anymore, it's always a higher speedbin
  • [01:34:49] <zmatt> (it's also the lowest speedbin definded by JEDEC)
  • [01:34:57] <zmatt> *defined
  • [01:35:52] <yates> zmatt: is the emif used for dram?
  • [01:35:56] <zmatt> correct
  • [01:36:22] <yates> i've used that block of ip on the ti 64x, so somewhat familair
  • [01:36:31] <zmatt> hmmm probably not
  • [01:36:37] <zmatt> that was EMIFA I think
  • [01:36:39] <zmatt> not EMIF4D
  • [01:37:04] <yates> actually it was emif4d-revc-3.229-21-oct-2008
  • [01:37:07] <zmatt> I still need to finish my own ddr init code in my baremetal codebase
  • [01:37:08] <yates> :)
  • [01:37:09] <zmatt> oh ok
  • [01:37:16] <yates> no, just joking.
  • [01:37:22] <yates> aha.
  • [01:37:26] <zmatt> I was already wtfing
  • [01:37:29] <zmatt> :P
  • [01:37:58] <zmatt> basically in baremetal code I normally never need the external ram since there's no much internal sram already
  • [01:38:05] <yates> still, i BET there are some residual similarities.
  • [01:39:12] <zmatt> veremit: btw, for future reference, tar by default seems to preserve most things, though you still need to pass --xattrs to preserve those also
  • [01:39:28] <zmatt> I think 'rsync -a' also needs an additional flag for those
  • [01:40:08] <veremit> zmatt.. yes I recall tar being quite tolerant
  • [01:40:30] <zmatt> actually scrap that, even with --xattrs tar doesn't work right
  • [01:40:33] <zmatt> rsync -aX does seem to
  • [01:40:50] <veremit> I do rsync OS images frequently with good success .. as long as you miss out /dev /sys /proc
  • [01:41:08] <zmatt> a good test target is /bin/ping which on modern debian uses file caps instead of setuid
  • [01:41:10] <veremit> usually -avz out of habit
  • [01:41:22] <veremit> oo
  • [01:41:38] <zmatt> # getcap /bin/ping
  • [01:41:38] <zmatt> /bin/ping = cap_net_raw+ep
  • [01:41:42] <yates> zmatt: is it necessary to perform the h/w leveling (not even sure what that entails, but i see it in the trm) before accessing dram? that is, aren't the default parameters "gracious" enough to allow the timing to work out-of-the-box?
  • [01:41:55] <zmatt> yates: h/w level is broken and not supported :)
  • [01:41:58] <zmatt> leveling
  • [01:42:30] <yates> ah, i see tha tnow. so same question for s/w leveling.
  • [01:43:05] <zmatt> in my experience you can get away with wildly wrong leveling in practice
  • [01:43:26] <zmatt> at these low speeds
  • [01:43:49] <yates> good to know, thanks. we also took a good amount of care to keep the ram close to the cpu and ensure all lines are teh same length.
  • [01:44:05] <zmatt> I'm looking at my ram init code from a previous board (dm814x-based)
  • [01:44:15] <zmatt> it's really negligble amount of code really
  • [01:44:36] <zmatt> and this actually had two EMIFs under the umbrella of a DMM that needed to be initialized
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  • [01:47:58] <yates> i see
  • [01:48:56] <yates> still some 70+ pages to the emif in the trm... whew!
  • [01:49:10] <yates> probably don't need to read everything, though.
  • [01:49:41] <yates> is spruh73l the latest version of the trm?
  • [01:49:54] <yates> SPRUH73L
  • [01:50:09] <yates> or the version you're using, zmatt
  • [01:50:10] <yates> ?
  • [01:50:26] <zmatt> yates: http://pastebin.com/UU2RpLkV <- this is what I had scraped together from u-boot a while ago
  • [01:50:53] <zmatt> that's the latest version yes
  • [01:51:51] <yates> ack
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  • [01:53:34] <zmatt> so it's: config PLL, write leveling data to phy, configure phy io drivers (via control module), release CKE control, after that things get a bit vague since I haven't checked yet what the last three calls do exactly in which order
  • [01:53:51] <zmatt> they still need to enable and calibrate the VTP macros somewhere, probably in config_ddr_phy
  • [01:54:41] <zmatt> then write config values to a few relevant EMIF regs, but make sure sdram_config is written last (that's probably done by config_sdram() then)
  • [01:54:56] <zmatt> *VTP macro, sorry
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  • [01:55:34] <yates> voltage, temperature, and process
  • [01:56:06] <zmatt> yeah that, thingy that uses the external precision resistor to calibrate driver current
  • [01:56:16] <yates> does the vtp store settings non-volatilely?
  • [01:56:19] <zmatt> no
  • [01:56:36] <yates> oh, you just have to initialize from the code?
  • [01:56:56] <zmatt> you just enable it wait for it to say "OK, calibration done"
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  • [01:57:28] <zmatt> it periodically auto-recalibrates when needed to compensate for temperature changes
  • [01:57:30] <yates> are the leveling parameters stored non-volatily on-chip?
  • [01:57:34] <zmatt> noe
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  • [01:57:35] <zmatt> nope
  • [01:57:52] <yates> i was under the impression there were some ddram parameters that were stored in on-chip flash. not true?
  • [01:58:06] <zmatt> there's no on-chip flash
  • [01:58:08] <zmatt> none
  • [01:58:29] <yates> well, some sort of non-volatile memory.
  • [01:58:38] <yates> earom, eeprom, etc.
  • [01:59:01] <yates> there is nothing like that/
  • [01:59:03] <yates> ?
  • [01:59:05] <zmatt> the only on-chip non-volatile memory is eFUSE, and it's only factory-programmed
  • [01:59:16] <yates> i see.
  • [01:59:45] <zmatt> (it does have a "customer eFUSE" feature, but you'd need to be a really big customer to get those... it's disabled in off-the-shelf AM335x parts)
  • [02:00:03] <yates> no, i meant something associated with the dram controller(s)
  • [02:00:14] <zmatt> nothing non-volatile
  • [02:00:24] <yates> right. i was confyoosed.
  • [02:00:36] <yates> eschew obfuscation.
  • [02:00:43] <zmatt> the RAM config parameters are also volatile, and automatically programmed by EMIF when you write to the sdram_config register
  • [02:01:50] <zmatt> note btw that the phy registers have accidently been made write-only on the am335x (erratum), so you can't read them back to check what you've written
  • [02:02:34] <yates> you mean registers associated with the ethernet i/f?
  • [02:02:44] <zmatt> no, ddr phy
  • [02:02:54] <zmatt> 0x44e12000
  • [02:03:19] <zmatt> leveling data
  • [02:03:20] <zmatt> and such
  • [02:03:32] <yates> oh, well that's nice...
  • [02:03:39] <yates> is the sram write-only too?
  • [02:03:42] <yates> :)
  • [02:03:49] <zmatt> hehe
  • [02:04:18] * msvb-lab (~mschloh@x55b54bad.dyn.telefonica.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [02:04:19] <zmatt> some vendors used to jokingly include "write-only memory" in their catalog
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  • [02:05:17] <yates> National had some "UFART" chips in the catalogues back in the 80s: "Universal Fully Asynchronous Receiver/Transmitter"
  • [02:05:28] <zmatt> but seriously, the am335x looks like it was done by an intern or something
  • [02:05:43] <yates> ouch.
  • [02:06:00] <yates> are you using a debugger? which one and what software?
  • [02:06:03] <yates> ccs?
  • [02:06:35] <yates> i had suggested the segger j-link
  • [02:06:42] <yates> but we haven't purchased one yet.
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  • [02:07:03] <zmatt> note that ccs isn't free unless you use it with the xds100v2
  • [02:07:19] <zmatt> that may be a thing to keep into mind
  • [02:08:28] <yates> i bought a version of it (5.1?) about 2-3 years back. i don't know how the licensing works anymore, i thought it was perpetual, and even if it is, i don't remember if it includes the Cortex A8
  • [02:08:34] <zmatt> and yeah I use ccs... though it sucksm, so I use only it if I can't debug an issue by trial&error and some debug prints, lol
  • [02:08:51] <yates> i'm with you there, re: debug prints.
  • [02:08:51] <zmatt> ah if you bought it already then nm
  • [02:09:07] <zmatt> openocd sucks also, but different
  • [02:09:20] <yates> oh really? i heard a lot of good about that, indirectly
  • [02:09:29] <yates> openocd/eclipse?
  • [02:09:53] <zmatt> dunno about the eclipse part, that's another monstrosity I usually prefer to avoid (note that CCS is also eclipse-based)
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  • [02:09:55] <yates> segger jlink has gdbserver. i think that's good lol.
  • [02:11:19] <yates> i'm with you on eclipse - i didn't buy into it. but emacs+gnumake doesn't get you debugging... gotta use something.
  • [02:11:37] <yates> otherwise i'd totally toss all the ide bs
  • [02:12:03] <zmatt> but openocd can't really handle ARMv7 targets well, especially not during init / early boot or suspend/resume situations (probably the most common times to need JTAG) since it doesn't properly handle WAIT responses which you inevitable get if some PLL is still (or again) unlocked and part of the chip becomes slow to respond
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  • [02:12:33] <zmatt> so then you're forced to configure some insanely slow interface speed like 1 kHz to hope to avoid WAIT responses
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  • [02:13:04] <yates> maybe we shoudl keep our fingers crossed stuff will work without having to require a debugger...
  • [02:14:22] <zmatt> so, you guys did a custom board design... how'd you deal with the ddr3 part? did you have prior experience with something like that, or copied that part of the pcb layout unmodified from the bbb?
  • [02:15:08] <yates> copied from bbb verbatime
  • [02:15:17] <yates> that part
  • [02:15:29] <zmatt> hehe, ok
  • [02:15:47] <zmatt> since, well, ever read the ddr3 design rules in the am335x datasheet?
  • [02:16:11] <yates> verbatim is probably overstated. we didn't use the exact same traces.
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  • [02:16:20] <yates> no...
  • [02:16:35] <yates> i didn't do the hw design, though
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  • [02:19:05] <zmatt> you didn't use the exact same traces... then we're back with, have you guys ever done something with ddr3 before?
  • [02:19:26] <zmatt> I hope whoeever did the hw design *did* read the part of the datasheet :P
  • [02:20:09] <zmatt> (section 7.7.2.3 of sprs717g)
  • [02:20:11] <yates> i think the layout guys that we used have. not positive, though
  • [02:21:27] <zmatt> they spend 20 pages on explanining how to do the pcb layout for it
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  • [02:22:30] <yates> good points. i'll ask our hw guys / layout guy.
  • [02:26:00] <zmatt> well, let's just hope they have, presumably one does not undertake something this ambitious without some serious reading up
  • [02:26:09] <zmatt> anyhow
  • [02:26:41] <zmatt> it also just occurred to me: CCS typically includes some GEL files containing scripts that initialize the memory controller
  • [02:27:05] <zmatt> even without jtag you can use those since GEL is more or less C-ish
  • [02:27:24] <zmatt> it'll probably have leveling values for the am335x-evm, but care
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  • [02:29:02] <yates> is the cost of my time writing this test less than the ~$600 for the debugger?!?
  • [02:29:33] <zmatt> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TMDSEMU100V2U-20T/296-31067-ND/2261950
  • [02:29:57] <yates> with that and the gel file, it would be something like "fill 0x20000000 0x10000000 /verify"
  • [02:30:20] <zmatt> the base address of ram is 0x80000000
  • [02:30:32] <yates> that's why i said "something like"
  • [02:30:34] <zmatt> hehe
  • [02:30:53] <zmatt> I'd personally use a little test program instead
  • [02:31:01] <zmatt> it'll be a _lot_ faster than doing the writes via JTAG
  • [02:31:18] <zmatt> and you can use a simple PRNG as test pattern instead of filling a fixed pattern
  • [02:31:26] <zmatt> a fixed pattern can miss many memory problems
  • [02:32:06] <yates> true.
  • [02:32:19] <zmatt> e.g. writing a value and then reading it back will even work if the RAM is entirely non-operational since the value will be held capacitively on the data lines
  • [02:32:23] <zmatt> *may work
  • [02:32:42] <yates> that's a stretch..
  • [02:32:48] <zmatt> nope, happened to me
  • [02:33:01] <yates> no shit?
  • [02:33:22] <yates> you mean if you write a fixed pattern?
  • [02:33:22] <zmatt> it was the first little test of external RAM, and it seemed encouraging
  • [02:33:31] <yates> haha .
  • [02:33:34] <yates> foolish you.
  • [02:33:35] <zmatt> I just wrote some value and read it back again
  • [02:33:42] <zmatt> different values too
  • [02:34:04] <zmatt> but just write followed by read
  • [02:34:06] <yates> wait, different values? so how does a PRNG fix that?
  • [02:34:16] <zmatt> because you first fill all of ram
  • [02:34:20] <zmatt> then reinit the prng
  • [02:34:25] <yates> right right.
  • [02:34:25] <zmatt> then verify all of ram
  • [02:34:32] <yates> the prng is like a memory, in a sense.
  • [02:34:41] <zmatt> yeah, it's a really big test pattern
  • [02:35:10] <zmatt> note btw that the board I just mentioned turned out to have "RAS" and "CAS" swapped in the schematic by accident
  • [02:35:19] <yates> i used a simple one for sending test data on ericsson's first gsm/edge board on the ti 55x
  • [02:35:20] <zmatt> so rest assured, the memory really didn't work
  • [02:35:45] <yates> prng, that is.
  • [02:36:25] <yates> that is a very informative experience, thanks for sharing it. this is all goign in my files.
  • [02:37:57] <yates> in your opinion, would a week be a reasonable amount of time to get this ddr3 test code running?
  • [02:38:49] <yates> by the way, did i tell you the led test is working?
  • [02:38:53] <yates> thanks for that, man
  • [02:38:59] <zmatt> if you can init DDR from CCS then the memory test loop itself is like 10 lines of code, why'd you need a week for that? :P
  • [02:39:02] <zmatt> np
  • [02:39:06] <zmatt> and good to hear
  • [02:39:31] <zmatt> did you click the digikey link btw?
  • [02:39:34] <yates> yes
  • [02:39:44] <yates> $82.30
  • [02:39:48] <zmatt> that. :)
  • [02:40:02] <zmatt> and it would even have included a free CCS license if you didn't already have one
  • [02:40:26] <yates> re: led test: it's not the code itself, but all the details on where to locate things, the ld script syntax, etc.
  • [02:40:39] <yates> excellent example
  • [02:40:40] <zmatt> don't get me started about linker scripts
  • [02:40:42] * Defiant (~Defiant@x55b02b54.dyn.telefonica.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [02:40:45] * zmatt strangles GNU ld
  • [02:41:20] <yates> i've written a bunch for TI's code generation tools over the decades (whew, i'm getting old)..
  • [02:41:21] * zmatt sets GNU ld on fire
  • [02:41:30] <yates> not gnu ld, though
  • [02:41:46] <yates> nice syntax, eh?
  • [02:41:47] * zmatt pees over GNU ld to extinguish it again so he can safely hack into a for a while with a machete
  • [02:42:04] <yates> what do you use for doc? just the ld manual?
  • [02:42:47] <zmatt> that and many delightful experiences involving "WTF did it do THIS TIME"
  • [02:45:09] <yates> just 10 loc, right?
  • [02:45:10] <yates> :)
  • [02:45:28] <yates> THAT'S why 10 loc takes a week (among others..)
  • [02:45:34] <zmatt> hehehehe
  • [02:45:47] <yates> i finally got that FREAKIN .img file formatted correctly
  • [02:45:54] <yates> it took a DAY
  • [02:46:04] <zmatt> yates: did you see my README on raw mmc boot mode?
  • [02:46:19] <yates> no, where?
  • [02:46:22] <zmatt> github
  • [02:46:29] <yates> the led test project?
  • [02:46:31] <zmatt> yep
  • [02:46:36] <yates> i'll look
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  • [02:47:30] <yates> http://paste.fedoraproject.org/297603/49283607
  • [02:47:54] <zmatt> about ld, for example I first declared memory to start at 0x402f0400 (in the MEMORY {} section of the linker script)
  • [02:48:07] <zmatt> it'll happily ignore that and put your image at 0x402f0000 anyway
  • [02:48:19] <yates> why?!?
  • [02:49:12] <yates> btw, what do the double : ("::") mean in a gnu make file? is it .PHONY?
  • [02:49:16] <zmatt> because surely memory starts on a page boundary? so obviously the right thing to do is to just silently ignore the lower 12 bits
  • [02:49:45] <zmatt> unless you pass the right linker option of course
  • [02:49:57] <zmatt> intuitively named -Wl,--omagic
  • [02:50:07] <yates> why DID memory start at 0400?
  • [02:50:15] <zmatt> because secrom
  • [02:50:34] <zmatt> the first 1 KB of sram is reserved by secure rom for... well, nothing really, it doesn't use it
  • [02:50:53] <zmatt> probably their firewall doesn't support configuring a 0 KB boundary
  • [02:51:04] <yates> whta?
  • [02:51:10] <yates> firewall?!?
  • [02:51:37] <zmatt> eh, yes?
  • [02:52:30] <zmatt> the cortex-a8 has an elaborate one for secure-world stuff only, but there are also freely programmable firewalls for all L3 targets
  • [02:52:43] <zmatt> the L4 interconnects also support per-peripheral configurable permissions
  • [02:52:45] <yates> "firewall" is usually used to refer to blocking ports on a network interface. why are you using this term for a linker script?
  • [02:52:58] <zmatt> blocking access to RAM
  • [02:53:08] <zmatt> which is why I need to avoid that part in my linker script
  • [02:53:33] <zmatt> if you try to access the first 1 KB of the cortex-a8 local SRAM you get a bus error
  • [02:53:42] <zmatt> due to firewall violation
  • [02:53:54] <zmatt> that's why the program image is loaded at 0x402f0400
  • [02:59:23] <zmatt> that was probably easier for TI than fixing the firewall to allow 0 KB of sram to be allocated to secure world :P
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  • [03:10:44] <zmatt> note that the L3 interconnect is actually a packet-switched network, so using the term "firewall" isn't that strange (the a8 sram doesn't reside on the L3, but still it's not a big stretch)
  • [03:13:24] <yates> but why would you worry about security at that level? is this for IP protection or somesuch?
  • [03:14:13] <yates> i.e., why have a firewall at all?
  • [03:14:42] <zmatt> this tech can ultimately be traced back to its OMAP heritage, on cellphones you have untrusted linux running alongside secrety-cellphony-stuff
  • [03:16:17] <zmatt> although I would encourage people to start using the firewalls more actively to prevent stray writes from a misbehaving core or DMA engine to fuck things up elsewhere... such bugs would be terrible to debug, and easily prevented with firewalls
  • [03:16:34] <zmatt> that will become especially important on a heavily multicore environment like the beagleboard-x15
  • [03:17:53] <yates> isn't that part of what the MMU is supposed to handle?
  • [03:18:09] <zmatt> MMU keeps processes on the same cpu out of each other's hair
  • [03:18:31] <zmatt> but there's no over-arching chip-level MMU
  • [03:19:52] <zmatt> if some PRU application messes up its pointer logic and on rare occasion writes to some page of code or data of a linux application or the linux kernel, which later crashes, how on earth are you to debug that?
  • [03:21:50] <zmatt> likewise the GPU depends on the driver to pass it correct pointers to framebuffers and such; a mistake in the driver (or in the microkernel running on the gpu) can yield the same problem
  • [03:21:56] <yates> i don't know how such things work. how does the x86 keep things from hosing up?
  • [03:22:12] <yates> the multicore, intel stuff, that is.
  • [03:22:39] <yates> on 2nd thought, nm.
  • [03:22:59] <yates> i'm not a memory / chip designer. i gotta get to work on my resampler...
  • [03:22:59] <zmatt> those cores share an MMU, just like the two cortex-a15 cores on the AM572x do
  • [03:25:11] <yates> 2/5 in fixed-point on a cortex m3
  • [03:25:43] <zmatt> beware of 0 dBFS+ ;)
  • [03:26:14] <yates> that can be perfectly avoided if you use FIR filters.
  • [03:26:27] <yates> IIR, not so much...
  • [03:26:40] <zmatt> it can be in both case
  • [03:26:45] <yates> no.
  • [03:26:48] <zmatt> it's just more annoying to calculate for IIR
  • [03:27:29] <yates> i proved about 10 years ago the humble sinc function (which is IIR, theoretically) has no bounds.
  • [03:27:44] <zmatt> the sinc function is a monstrosity
  • [03:27:59] <zmatt> a crawling horror
  • [03:28:01] <yates> i think the result applies to any IIR.
  • [03:28:03] <zmatt> no
  • [03:28:08] <yates> prove ti.
  • [03:28:09] <yates> it
  • [03:28:19] <zmatt> a normal IIR filter is 1. causal 2. has exponential decay
  • [03:28:24] <yates> give me a counter example
  • [03:28:30] <zmatt> pick any real-world IIR filter
  • [03:28:36] <zmatt> the sinc function is not a real-world filter
  • [03:28:41] <zmatt> it isn't implementable
  • [03:28:54] <yates> neither is any IIR!
  • [03:29:00] <zmatt> sure it is, don't be silly
  • [03:29:03] <zmatt> pick any biquad
  • [03:29:16] <yates> why do you think they call it IIR?!?
  • [03:29:28] <yates> INFINITE ir...
  • [03:29:36] <zmatt> yes, but with exponential decay
  • [03:29:43] <zmatt> so the absolute sum actually will converges
  • [03:29:43] <yates> any theoretical IIR
  • [03:30:00] <zmatt> just take any stateful filter
  • [03:30:20] <zmatt> state += input;
  • [03:30:22] <zmatt> output = state;
  • [03:30:26] <zmatt> state /= 2;
  • [03:30:42] <zmatt> that's a stable filter
  • [03:31:09] * zmatt . o O ( it is, right? ... *thinks* ... right )
  • [03:32:08] <yates> that's a pretty from-the-hip analysis
  • [03:32:22] <yates> a strict proof would probably require a good amount of real analysis...
  • [03:32:36] <zmatt> analyze it, if input samples are limited to [-1,1] then state is limited to (-2,2)
  • [03:32:41] <yates> and the specific z-transform.
  • [03:33:00] <zmatt> analyzing filter stability is not hard
  • [03:33:20] <yates> i don't think stability is the issue here.
  • [03:33:47] <yates> sure, just look at the poles in the z-plane
  • [03:33:59] <zmatt> the only thing that can throw a wrench into things is limited precision
  • [03:34:19] <yates> yes, there's that. including fixed-point implmentations
  • [03:34:32] <zmatt> for the filter above it's still easy to see there's no problem
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  • [03:35:54] <zmatt> if you limit the input range by shifting right by 1 bit then the calculation will never overflow, I think I dare to assert that without grabbing pencil and paper to verify it :)
  • [03:36:43] <zmatt> ok maybe I'd want to check what happens for MININT just in case, but other than that.. :P
  • [03:37:22] <zmatt> the point is the impulse response is [1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, ...]
  • [03:37:38] <zmatt> summation will converge
  • [03:37:43] <zmatt> (specifically to 2)
  • [03:38:14] <zmatt> same is true for any stable filter
  • [03:39:04] <zmatt> (that's not an if-and-only-if, the sum can also converge for an unstable filter)
  • [03:39:15] <zmatt> (I think)
  • [03:41:36] <zmatt> but it's funny you figured out how awful the sinc function is 10 years ago... I discovered the same I think about a year ago, maybe bit more, but it seems there's still a lot of unawareness about quite how horrible sinc is
  • [03:42:10] <yates> oh, it's nice in many ways, though
  • [03:42:17] <yates> useful
  • [03:42:29] <yates> like the perfect D/A
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  • [03:42:45] * zmatt coughs
  • [03:43:49] <zmatt> perfect according to some highly theoretical criteria, and if you ignore the fact it cannot be physically realized (nor even approximated), can cause infinite output spikes for bounded inputs
  • [03:44:20] <zmatt> the current output is can be unboundedly affected by samples arbitrarily far away in the future or past
  • [03:44:34] <zmatt> some perfect D/A there :P
  • [03:44:57] <yates> zmatt: please don't speak to me about real-world/implementable versus theoretical. i know the difference, and there is no textbook in existence (for DSP) that doesn't rely on the latter to teach the theory.
  • [03:45:33] <yates> there is not such thing as a Dirac delta function in practice, either.
  • [03:45:43] <yates> yet that is commonly used to visualize sampling
  • [03:45:53] <yates> the infinite impulse train, that is.
  • [03:46:35] <yates> and i've implemented a whole crap load of dsp in real-world systems, so i know about that too.
  • [03:46:36] <zmatt> and equally wrong. the properties of these things are mathematical convenience, which is hardly the same as perfection
  • [03:47:00] <zmatt> (note that my background is mathematics, so it's quite something for me to say that)
  • [03:47:01] <yates> zmatt: we have to part ways, here, then matt. we have a fundamental difference of philosophy
  • [03:47:05] <veremit> perfection is unachievable
  • [03:47:28] <veremit> even more so in a digital system
  • [03:47:34] <veremit> any*
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  • [03:48:08] <zmatt> yates: I suspect we probably agree on a lot in practice ;)
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  • [03:59:21] <GenTooMan> gone... gone are ... whatever.
  • [03:59:26] <GenTooMan> :D
  • [04:00:11] <GenTooMan> So now we need the BBB VoIP code.
  • [04:00:35] <veremit> GenTooMan .. run Asterisk :p I know a guy running a company voip on a Rpi (spew)
  • [04:01:23] <GenTooMan> Hmmm just need to add a decent codec onto a board and poof you have an overpriced VoIP system ... err. :D
  • [04:02:32] <veremit> if you used the cores to do some echo cancellation and such .. be a good speakerphone for voip :p
  • [04:03:15] <GenTooMan> I suppose you wouldn't have to worry too much about IO expansion. POE for power too.
  • [04:05:40] <veremit> incorporate video .. make it slightly interesting :p
  • [04:05:41] <veremit> lol
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  • [04:09:49] <GenTooMan> Hmmm 3d character that plays with a virtual handset when it's not busy. When it rings they jump and 'pick up the phone when someone leaves a message' now if you could sync the lips to whatever speech is being given that would be hilarious.
  • [04:14:23] <veremit> now you're talkin :D
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  • [04:19:36] <zmatt> hehehe
  • [04:19:42] <zmatt> sounds perfectly doable
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  • [04:20:27] <GenTooMan> Scarily enough it is... so do we have cute girl in tight cloths or ...
  • [04:21:13] <GenTooMan> I can see a lot of interesting models people can get for their phone LOL.
  • [04:25:00] <GenTooMan> also a lot of open lip movement animations are available based on language. this could be entirely too silly to be used for serious communication I'm afraid.
  • [04:25:25] <zmatt> down the rabbit hole you go...
  • [04:27:47] <GenTooMan> flush twice it's a long way to wonderland ...
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  • [04:28:57] <veremit> lolol
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