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  • [00:39:58] <gregoiregentil> Which Sitara does Beagleboard-XM has? AM3715-1000?
  • [00:45:01] <emeb> gregoiregentil: looks like it's not an AM but a DM3730
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  • [00:53:55] <thurbad> does overclocking the beagle C4 to 720MHz significantly decrease it's lifetime?
  • [00:56:18] <rcn-ee_lpt> thurbad, it's not really overclocking the C4 by running at 720... since that's what they are binned for..
  • [00:56:48] <thurbad> ok, that's good
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  • [00:57:23] <djlewis> now a c2 on the otherhand...
  • [01:01:30] <gregoiregentil> the "native" frequency of beagleboard-XM is 720Mhz (can be overclocked to 1.2GHz) or 1GHz (can be overclocked to 1.2GHz)?
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  • [01:02:25] <rcn-ee_lpt> gregoiregentil, are you sure? i thought the DM37xx in the xm was 1Ghz.. ?
  • [01:02:42] <gregoiregentil> I'm asking...
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  • [01:03:47] <rcn-ee_lpt> ah well from koen's patches in u-boot 2010-03 if it see's a XM it passes 1000 thru mpurate.. but till TI actually releases the chip docs we will know. ;)
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  • [01:06:49] <thurbad> hmm, anyone know where I can find instructions on how to set the clock frequency? google's not helping much today :/
  • [01:07:11] <rcn-ee_lpt> change mpurate in boot.scr .;)
  • [01:07:25] <thurbad> that's it?
  • [01:07:44] <thurbad> rcn-ee_lpt, thanks
  • [01:07:46] <rcn-ee_lpt> well you need either 2.6.32-psp or 2.6.35-mainline ;)
  • [01:08:01] <rcn-ee_lpt> everything else freezes.. ;)
  • [01:08:12] <thurbad> oh ... :/
  • [01:08:40] <thurbad> still working with 2.6.29 here
  • [01:09:16] <rcn-ee_lpt> i doubt that has the infastructure.. ;) but haven't booted that in probally a year..
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  • [01:51:42] <djlewis> i dont like being skeeter food :(
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  • [01:57:43] <rcn-ee_lpt> just hang around someone who the skeeters like better..
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  • [02:23:43] <djlewis> um, they like tender females.
  • [02:23:54] <djlewis> for that matter I do to.
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  • [02:27:00] <ds2> got a 55gal drum of DEET?
  • [02:27:18] <djlewis> now yuor talking :)
  • [02:27:44] <djlewis> your
  • [02:27:46] <ds2> wonder how well do those bug zappers work
  • [02:28:02] <ds2> and if I can get a software version of that ;)
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  • [02:49:51] <SmkMnstr> im working on that ds2
  • [02:50:32] <SmkMnstr> AI sw bug zapper, among everything else
  • [02:50:53] <SmkMnstr> may be about 10 years though
  • [02:51:17] <SmkMnstr> enjoy it while it lasts ;l)
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  • [06:05:27] <venkat> Hi can anyone guide me how to port android on OMAP3530
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  • [06:11:25] <hitlin37> I'm converting some arm-cc assemby functions into arm-gcc gas format ,i'm facing errors :undefined references to my assembly functions(written in arm-cc)
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  • [06:12:44] <hitlin37> is there any flag available for gas format
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  • [06:26:22] <av500> venkat: nice try :)
  • [06:27:29] <kblin> :)
  • [06:28:21] <venkat> Hi av500 did u try with android on OMAP3530
  • [06:28:51] <hitlin37> im using march=armv-7 ,mcpu=cortex-a8,mfpu=neon
  • [06:29:06] <jackman> any hawkboard users in here?
  • [06:30:40] <hitlin37> are there any switches for gas assembler
  • [06:31:04] <hitlin37> so that gcc recognizes arm-cc assembly
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  • [06:40:50] <ds> hitlin37: there are perl scripts for converting arm assembly to gas syntax
  • [06:43:00] <hitlin37> by arm assembly you mean to say converting from arm-cc to arm-gcc(gas)
  • [06:44:13] <hitlin37> where i can find it ?
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  • [07:06:54] <hitlin37> arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc,does it support gas format
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  • [07:12:57] <venkat> what is the bootloader used for android
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  • [07:22:49] <mru> morning _koen_
  • [07:23:41] <_koen_> good morning all
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  • [07:30:18] <mru> btw _koen_ what gcc do you use for arm stuff?
  • [07:30:37] <hitlin37> where i can find arm-cc to arm-gcc converter(couldn't find any perl script suggested by ds)
  • [07:32:39] <_koen_> still
  • [07:32:43] <_koen_> the same 4.3.3
  • [07:32:53] <_koen_> trying 4.5.x svn branch as well
  • [07:33:26] <mru> we discovered a bug in 4.3.5
  • [07:33:33] <mru> it miscompiles something obscure in ffmpeg
  • [07:33:46] <mru> we added a bunch of new tests
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  • [08:03:24] <hitlin37> i hav converted the following file into gas format so that i can compile on my linux machine using CS.http://pastebin.com/7HWMuiMt,i'm not able to access assembly function(omxSP_FFTFwd_CToC_SC32_Sfs) from this file
  • [08:04:16] <hitlin37> http://pastebin.com/7HWMuiMt
  • [08:04:18] <jacekowski> hitlin37: just install assembler with support for intel syntax
  • [08:04:52] <jacekowski> besides, that doesn't look like at&t syntax
  • [08:05:01] <jacekowski> hmm, maybe
  • [08:05:04] <hitlin37> no,i'm compiling for arm-assembly
  • [08:05:14] <jacekowski> but it's still called intel syntax
  • [08:06:29] <hitlin37> im getting undefined refrence to the assembly function omxSP_FFTFwd_CToC_SC32_Sfs
  • [08:06:58] <hitlin37> where's the intel syntax here
  • [08:07:15] <jacekowski> nevermind
  • [08:07:25] <jacekowski> that's not gas format
  • [08:07:33] <jacekowski> gas accepts at&t syntax
  • [08:07:37] <jacekowski> and that's not at&t
  • [08:08:44] * av500 never wants to call a function called omxSP_FFTFwd_CToC_SC32_Sfs
  • [08:09:19] <neo01124> I am trying to cross compile an alsa driver with OE and am receiving error: sys/ioctl.h: No such file or directory. Any clues how to fix this?
  • [08:09:43] <hitlin37> but av500 i found it faster in my app than ffmpeg fft
  • [08:09:50] <jacekowski> neo01124: so you want us to fix your problem?
  • [08:09:57] <jacekowski> neo01124: do your research on google
  • [08:10:00] <jacekowski> neo01124: and think
  • [08:11:23] <neo01124> jacekowski, i am not asking you to fix it. I have tried hardlinking from the OE dir but doesnot work well. Googling doesnt turn up stuff specific to cross compiling. Just some clue man
  • [08:11:49] <koen> neo01124: jace is a troll, ignore him
  • [08:12:27] <jacekowski> neo01124: you need kernel sources
  • [08:12:36] <jacekowski> neo01124: and have correct include path
  • [08:14:06] <koen> neo01124: if you're using kbuild, 'inherit module' is enough
  • [08:14:14] <koen> if you aren't using kbuild, start using it :)
  • [08:15:24] <neo01124> jacekowski, I have the kernel sources. Actually i have also included linux/ioctl.h . koen: will checkout kbuild
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  • [08:31:28] <porcoesphino> quick question, if anyone knows the answer. Why is there no tincantools-zippy.diff for the 2.6.32 kernel?
  • [08:33:37] <koen> angstrom has a number of zippy/zippy2/trainer patches for 2.6.32
  • [08:34:03] <porcoesphino> it does?
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  • [08:34:31] <porcoesphino> it's in 2.6.29 but didn't seem to be in 2.6.32
  • [08:34:48] <porcoesphino> looking again :)
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  • [08:37:00] <porcoesphino> it would have to be in the recipes/linux/linux-omap-2.6.*/beagleboard dir since it's beagle specific right?
  • [08:37:22] <porcoesphino> it's there for 29, not for anything later using openembedded's git repository..
  • [08:37:38] <porcoesphino> should I be looking elsewhere?
  • [08:37:42] <neo01124> koen, i think i am already using kbuild. This is my makefile http://pastebin.com/EnFjfNZa
  • [08:37:56] <koen> porcoesphino: http://gitorious.org/angstrom/openembedded/trees/org.openembedded.dev/recipes/linux/linux-omap-psp-2.6.32/
  • [08:38:45] <koen> neo01124: and inherit module isn't working?
  • [08:40:34] <porcoesphino> ballz. how'd I miss that.
  • [08:41:09] <porcoesphino> now to work out why the enc28j60 isn't working
  • [08:41:18] <hgs> hi, i am trying to build gstreamer_ti with the recent dvsdk from ti outside angstrom/oe build system. During ticodecplugin(issued "make all install") compilation i see "*** No rule to make target `gstticodecplugin_/compiler.opt" ?
  • [08:42:08] <hgs> iam using using "dvsdk_3_01_00_10" any clues
  • [08:42:59] <porcoesphino> search the makefile for the files?
  • [08:43:11] <hgs> for some reason i see the make to be failed make[4]: Nothing to be done for `install-exec-am'. make[4]: Nothing to be done for `install-data-am'.
  • [08:44:55] <neo01124> koen, is "inherit module" meant for a .bb file or a makefile? how should this command be placed in a makefile?
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  • [09:02:40] <koen> neo01124: for the recipe
  • [09:03:49] <neo01124> koen, is there someway to do it without the recipe ? the rest of my code is being compiled without any recipes right now..
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  • [09:08:06] <Kmus> Morning all
  • [09:08:22] <av500> gm
  • [09:09:27] <hgs> seems $(GST_TI_PLATFORM) is not defined to omap3530, but dont know where to define??
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  • [09:15:11] <hgs> got pass the error but seeing more error !! http://pastebin.com/kpu4Dy4b
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  • [09:20:33] <koen> neo01124: OE uses recipes <period>
  • [09:20:43] <koen> neo01124: and wasn't OE integration one of the deliverables?
  • [09:21:09] <neo01124> koen, no
  • [09:22:30] <koen> hmmm
  • [09:22:36] <koen> it is for all the other projects
  • [09:23:33] <koen> and I honestly wonder why it's so what to write 'inherit module ; SRC_URI = "git://foo.com/bar"'
  • [09:24:28] <neo01124> is this a good example of a simple recipe ? http://www.kunen.org/uC/beagle/oe_kmod.html
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  • [09:25:00] <koen> no
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  • [09:26:47] <koen> neo01124: this is how I compile the vloopback module: http://pastebin.com/k7exPaG9
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  • [09:45:05] <cwillu_at_work> you know, I think I prefer my long weekends on the monday rather than the friday
  • [09:45:39] <cwillu_at_work> you get the long weekend, and right when its over and you have to go back to work, you realize that at least it's a short week :)
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  • [12:18:28] <koen> eFfeM_work: I had to use some git tricks because some recipes were already fixed, but your patch is in
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  • [12:22:24] <eFfeM_work> koen, thanks, saw it pass by
  • [12:22:45] <eFfeM_work> actually I think I've generated the patch on sunday's git head
  • [12:23:13] <eFfeM_work> i'll deal with the two with very long lines at home
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  • [12:24:00] <eFfeM_work> koen btw any advice on the lines that read fakeroot do_stage() { autotools_stage_all }
  • [12:25:41] <eFfeM_work> planning to work on the recipes I touched in the past, but also have some other things (like gsoc, and bike repair) tonight
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  • [12:26:14] <koen> eFfeM_work: if those have fakeroot do_install() as well they can get removed
  • [12:26:23] <koen> although I can't see why staging would need a fakeroot
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  • [12:27:52] <eFfeM_work> koen, fuse recipes seem the only ones that have it, they do not have a do_install
  • [12:29:34] <koen> ah right, they try to install a dev node
  • [12:30:38] <eFfeM_work> koen, can you fix while we're at it ?
  • [12:30:55] <_koen_> not right now, sorry
  • [12:31:32] <eFfeM_work> ok
  • [12:31:38] <eFfeM_work> np
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  • [13:22:16] <hitlin37> whats m_start in arm-gcc,i'm not able to call a function in assembly starting with m_start
  • [13:27:13] <av500> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
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  • [13:57:13] <av500> :)
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  • [14:00:51] * DaveDavenport grabs a chair
  • [14:00:53] <DaveDavenport> yes koen?
  • [14:01:09] <av500> chair is supposed to be thrown
  • [14:01:18] <DaveDavenport> aah go balmer
  • [14:01:38] <DaveDavenport> ballmer even
  • [14:02:56] * DaveDavenport does the ballmer dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc
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  • [14:03:29] * av500 shouts "android porters, android porters, android porters!!!"
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  • [14:12:46] <koen> mru: where do you keep that cpuburn code?
  • [14:16:38] <mru> somewhere on my hard drive
  • [14:16:41] <av500> hdd?
  • [14:16:50] <mru> I suspect it can be improved too
  • [14:17:02] <_koen_> mru: gerald would like to run it as part of the test suite
  • [14:17:13] <mru> then I shall dig it out and turn up the heat
  • [14:17:20] <av500> git it
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  • [14:36:18] <Ralph_> Hi, what openGL libraries would you recommend for loading jpeg files?
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  • [14:37:06] <av500> libjpeg?
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  • [14:37:45] <Ralph_> thanks
  • [14:38:20] <av500> but it's not an "openGL" lib
  • [14:38:54] <dm8tbr> libporn?
  • [14:39:06] <av500> watch it!
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  • [14:39:22] <DaveDavenport> that is what most people do with porn yes
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  • [14:40:29] <dm8tbr> av500: that was the image processing library in mozilla for a long time...
  • [14:40:49] <dm8tbr> ah sorry it was libpr0n
  • [14:40:56] <dm8tbr> http://www.libpr0n.com/
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  • [14:42:27] <dm8tbr> Why the name "libpr0n"? -- The main goal of the library is to render pornographic images in an efficient way. Plus, the name "imglib2" is boring.
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  • [14:56:43] <sjoerd> hmm, DSPbinaries-3.09-Linux-x86-Install as linked from the dsp usage wiki only seems to have an h264 decoder, not an encoder.. Anyone know if one can download an encoder from somewhere else ?
  • [14:57:06] <av500> from where?
  • [14:57:23] <Ralph_> is jpeglib the same thing?
  • [14:57:35] <sjoerd> http://elinux.org/BeagleBoard/DSP_Howto#v3.09
  • [14:58:12] <koen> ah, that's dspbridge
  • [14:58:23] <koen> gstreamer-ti has both encoders and decoders
  • [14:58:31] <koen> that's using dsplink
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  • [15:01:05] <sjoerd> But no encoder for use with dspbridge ?
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  • [15:07:23] <koen> not that I know off
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  • [15:10:14] <av500> koen: hmm, extract the XDAIS one fro link and paste into bridge :)
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  • [15:51:56] * jamuraa is just getting into the gstreamer stuff
  • [15:52:13] <av500> I hope you find back out
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  • [15:55:24] <jamuraa> I got vlc to stream for just an intial test but it's a bit... slow and choppy. I'm guessing because it's doing everything in sw
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  • [16:02:05] <arundp> How to port my c++ app using opencv to beagle
  • [16:03:51] <koen> port or compile?
  • [16:05:58] <arundp> Koen: I made my c++ app in my pc using opencv, i need to make it work with beagle
  • [16:06:28] <jamuraa> so you just need to compile it. use openembedded and make a package http://wiki.openembedded.org/index.php/Getting_Started#Adding_Packages
  • [16:06:51] <av500> arundp: your PC runs linux, beagle runs linux
  • [16:08:42] <arundp> DO i NEED to add opencv packages while building rootfs with OE or angstrom?.
  • [16:09:56] <koen> you can provide fake headers and a lib with stubs if you want
  • [16:10:03] <cwillu> some days, I think we don't yell at people enough anymore
  • [16:10:15] <koen> I can shout guesses
  • [16:10:20] <jamuraa> just to be sure I'm not running down the wrong path, should I expect these recipes to work with beagle using the gstreamer-ti? http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Example_GStreamer_Pipelines#OMAP35x
  • [16:10:26] <cwillu> THE ANSWER IS 42
  • [16:10:39] <av500> jamuraa: recipes?
  • [16:10:40] <koen> jamuraa: those pipelines are supposed to work
  • [16:10:49] <av500> ah, pieplines
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  • [16:10:51] <jamuraa> pipelines :P
  • [16:10:55] <koen> jamuraa: but they are a bit old, so things might have changed
  • [16:11:03] <cwillu> this is not a pipeline |
  • [16:11:03] <jamuraa> sorry I've been working too much with bitbake
  • [16:11:14] <av500> old pipelines tend to leak or burst
  • [16:11:26] <koen> all this talk about baking and recipes...
  • [16:11:30] * koen heats up the oven
  • [16:11:32] <av500> make sure to add | BOP |
  • [16:11:51] * jamuraa never misses lunch when working with oe because of all the baking
  • [16:11:57] <prpplague> koen: baking a rum cake?
  • [16:11:58] * cwillu envisions koen as the salad fingers guy
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  • [16:19:07] <koen> no, having steak tonight
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  • [16:26:26] <arundp> what is fake headers for opencv?
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  • [17:03:55] <jamuraa> does someone know where I can download the demo files that are referenced from the GStreamer pipelines page? I'd like to make sure I'm loading modules correctly.
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  • [17:05:10] <jamuraa> doh, of course I find the gstreamer.ti.com files page just after asking. there needs to be a law about finding things directly after you've gotten far enough into your search to decide to ask
  • [17:05:37] <av500> then you have not gotten far enough into your search
  • [17:07:03] <jamuraa> but if I just searched farther before asking, I *still* wouldn't find it until I asked. such is my life
  • [17:08:09] * torez (~torez@cpe-70-123-142-200.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [17:14:58] <koen> jamuraa: opkg install gstreamer-ti, no need to load modules by hand
  • [17:15:19] <jamuraa> I don't need to load modules by hand? but I don't have /dev/cmem otherwise
  • [17:15:31] <jamuraa> I've already opkg install task-gstreamer-ti
  • [17:17:29] <koen> it's an initscript
  • [17:17:34] <koen> so reboot :)
  • [17:17:45] <jamuraa> ah, so it's a good thing I decided to halt and take an image :P
  • [17:18:19] <jamuraa> do I need to change my boot params? cmem was complaining about the kernel taking 0x80000000 to 0x90000000
  • [17:18:29] <av500> ignore
  • [17:18:33] <av500> well
  • [17:18:37] <av500> what is your mem=?
  • [17:19:12] <jamuraa> I don't have a mem= in my bootargs
  • [17:19:23] <av500> then you need one
  • [17:20:08] <jamuraa> I gathered, probably mem=128M? or smaller?
  • [17:21:24] <koen> try using http://dominion.thruhere.net/koen/OE/uboot-beagleboard-validation-boot.cmd.scr as boot.scr
  • [17:21:47] <koen> the source for that: http://cgit.openembedded.org/cgit.cgi/openembedded/tree/recipes/angstrom/angstrom-uboot-scripts/beagleboard-validation-boot.cmd
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  • [17:22:26] <jkridner1> koen: seem syou are still up...
  • [17:22:40] <av500> he waits for the steak
  • [17:23:04] <jkridner1> koen: any objection to me pushing: http://gitorious.org/~Jadon/angstrom/jadon-angstrom-setup-scripts/commit/00a0c9ec85a2354a98218ecd96af3674a4e0549b and http://gitorious.org/~Jadon/angstrom/jadon-angstrom-setup-scripts/commit/08a30b2651efdd1798bfd0206173f01140d2a7ba ?
  • [17:24:16] <av500> jkridner1: rejected, mixes functional and whitespace chabges!
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  • [17:28:17] <jkridner1> av500: ah, feel the love.
  • [17:28:28] <jkridner1> guess I can break it up while I'm waiting on a build.
  • [17:28:29] <koen> feel free to push them
  • [17:28:31] <av500> hi khasim
  • [17:32:57] <av500> jkridner1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jadon/4853848418/ Schr??dinger's lighbulb(s)?
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  • [17:37:47] <jamuraa> this boot.scr, I put it in the fat partition? I'm still getting no /dev/cmem after a restart (and now my serial console is.. messed up?)
  • [17:38:21] <av500> yes
  • [17:40:24] <jkridner1> :)
  • [17:40:27] <jamuraa> should I see something from u-boot about using the boot.scr?
  • [17:41:54] <koen> yes
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  • [17:43:23] <jamuraa> okay I'm not doing it right then, or I need to upgrade my u-boot (currently on 2010.03)
  • [17:44:20] <khasim> av500: hello
  • [17:44:57] <av500> my hawkboard seems to be stuck in the mail
  • [17:44:59] <av500> :)
  • [17:45:13] <khasim> :)
  • [17:47:49] <khasim> very little involvement in hawk and beagle ... fully on to android... :( or :)
  • [17:47:51] <koen> jamuraa: that one should be ok
  • [17:48:12] <koen> jamuraa: try resetting the env with 'nand erase 260000 20000
  • [17:48:13] <koen> '
  • [17:50:02] <jkridner1> koen: http://gitorious.org/~Jadon/angstrom/jadon-angstrom-setup-scripts/commits/rebase <- split whitespace fix and cleaned up commit comments a bit
  • [17:50:35] * lag (~lag@109.181.85.103) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  • [17:50:50] <koen> jkridner1: you should be able to push those to the main repo
  • [17:51:47] <jkridner1> yup, just wanted to review first.
  • [17:51:51] <jkridner1> I will push if you approve.
  • [17:52:28] * khasim (~a0393720@192.163.20.231) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [17:52:53] * koen already has had beer today, so approval is easy
  • [17:53:37] <jkridner1> done. :)
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  • [17:54:32] <jkridner1> thank av500 for pushing me to make cleanups before pushing to master.
  • [17:54:42] <av500> :)
  • [17:56:04] <koen> all hail av500
  • [17:56:36] * av500 bows
  • [17:56:51] <av500> err, no, I should not
  • [17:57:09] * av500 gives jkridner1 a piece of land
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  • [17:58:18] <dm8tbr> av500: where? on the moon?
  • [17:58:34] <av500> dm8tbr: at the border to the savage langs
  • [17:58:37] <av500> lands
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  • [18:06:51] <vasily_pupkin> hi
  • [18:07:05] <vasily_pupkin> I use usb OTG port on beagle to power it
  • [18:07:07] <av500> lo
  • [18:07:33] <vasily_pupkin> now i attach additional power to my hab, that attached to USB 2.0 port on beagle
  • [18:07:46] <vasily_pupkin> and now, when I remove OTG cable, beagle still workd
  • [18:07:48] <vasily_pupkin> *s
  • [18:07:53] <vasily_pupkin> Is it ok?!
  • [18:07:59] <av500> no
  • [18:08:04] <vasily_pupkin> shit
  • [18:08:10] <av500> well
  • [18:08:16] * RoHS (~RoHS@68-64-214-18.static.forethought.net) Quit (Quit: RoHS)
  • [18:08:20] <av500> koen: ^^^^^^^
  • [18:08:53] <DaveDavenport> hmmm yep, that works.
  • [18:08:57] <DaveDavenport> had that too
  • [18:08:59] <vasily_pupkin> is there any chanses to break something in this situation?
  • [18:09:15] <av500> vasily_pupkin: I dont think so
  • [18:09:21] <av500> but why not leave the otg power supply?
  • [18:09:31] <mru> I wouldn't recommend stepping on it...
  • [18:09:31] <vasily_pupkin> em?
  • [18:09:32] <av500> or even better, power it from dc-in
  • [18:09:36] <dm8tbr> hubs that feed power backwards are evil
  • [18:09:46] <mru> they are, but power is power, no?
  • [18:09:55] <mru> no, knowledge is power
  • [18:09:59] <mru> power corrupts
  • [18:10:07] <mru> study hard
  • [18:10:09] <mru> be evil
  • [18:10:14] <vasily_pupkin> I can power it from DC
  • [18:10:24] <vasily_pupkin> but i still need powed hub
  • [18:10:31] <av500> that should be ok
  • [18:10:55] <av500> you might want to shop for a better hub (yes I know, .ua :)
  • [18:11:01] <vasily_pupkin> :]
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  • [18:11:23] <vasily_pupkin> I have 3 hubs here
  • [18:11:37] <vasily_pupkin> they are all shit
  • [18:11:58] <koen> but them in a paper bag and light it on fire
  • [18:12:13] <DaveDavenport> but them in a paper bag?
  • [18:12:30] <vasily_pupkin> em?
  • [18:12:36] <koen> s/but/put/
  • [18:13:19] * djlewis_ (~djlewis@adsl-65-64-30-13.dsl.ltrkar.swbell.net) has joined #beagle
  • [18:13:29] <vasily_pupkin> em
  • [18:13:31] <vasily_pupkin> who knows
  • [18:13:49] <vasily_pupkin> I use 2 usb ports for power this shit for now
  • [18:14:02] <vasily_pupkin> and my pc is in power off state
  • [18:14:14] <vasily_pupkin> i.e. fan is off
  • [18:14:53] * rcn-ee_ (ccdd4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.221.76.252) has joined #beagle
  • [18:14:58] <vasily_pupkin> is there any chanses, that main AC overheats?
  • [18:15:12] <av500> AC?
  • [18:15:29] <mru> weather forcast for .ua is hot
  • [18:15:34] <DaveDavenport> air co?
  • [18:15:36] <mru> the AC might not take it
  • [18:15:37] <vasily_pupkin> power supply
  • [18:15:44] <djlewis_> gm
  • [18:15:45] <vasily_pupkin> in my PC
  • [18:15:46] <vasily_pupkin> :]
  • [18:15:51] <av500> I dont know your PC
  • [18:15:55] <mru> some computers supply usb power even in standby
  • [18:16:10] <av500> so that usb kbds can wake them up
  • [18:16:18] <av500> djlewis_: gm
  • [18:16:56] * drinkcat (~nicolas@119.56.3.26) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [18:16:59] <mru> or in my case, so the beagle can complain about nfs server not responding
  • [18:17:24] <vasily_pupkin> i use beagle for "night mode"
  • [18:17:42] <vasily_pupkin> when PC goes to sleep, beagle start services
  • [18:17:53] <vasily_pupkin> powers ethernet, wifi, etc
  • [18:18:17] <vasily_pupkin> and it get power from pc in stand by
  • [18:18:33] <av500> the feedback from your powered hub should be ok as long as you power the BB from OTG or DC-IN
  • [18:18:35] <vasily_pupkin> and i have some bad feelings
  • [18:18:56] <vasily_pupkin> av500: and if i remove OTG?
  • [18:19:00] <av500> why?
  • [18:19:32] <vasily_pupkin> # occasionally
  • [18:19:41] <av500> well, dont
  • [18:19:43] <vasily_pupkin> >_<
  • [18:20:10] <av500> if rely on the backfeed from the hub to power the BB, you should have bad feelings
  • [18:20:28] <av500> why not power the BB from the same hub power supply?
  • [18:20:42] <koen> backfeed and otg is a really bad idea
  • [18:20:58] <koen> if you back feed, you need to trigger the shunt in the DC plug
  • [18:20:59] <vasily_pupkin> em?
  • [18:21:02] * RoHS (~RoHS@68-64-214-18.static.forethought.net) has joined #beagle
  • [18:21:02] <mru> yeah, don't cross the streams
  • [18:21:25] <vasily_pupkin> av500: my OTG and power to hub comes from PC's usb hub
  • [18:21:44] * RoHS (~RoHS@68-64-214-18.static.forethought.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  • [18:21:48] <av500> then your hub is not "powered"
  • [18:21:58] <av500> powered means, not powered by USB
  • [18:22:15] <vasily_pupkin> ??
  • [18:22:39] <mru> if you connect a hub to the ehci, and the musb to the hub, do you get a perpetuum mobile?
  • [18:22:39] <av500> a powered hub is a hub that is powered from 5V, not from USB host
  • [18:22:48] <mru> av500: or 12V
  • [18:23:00] <vasily_pupkin> hm
  • [18:23:03] <av500> mru: you need to inject 1 electron into it to get it going
  • [18:23:17] <vasily_pupkin> but isn't USB output 5v?
  • [18:23:17] <bkero> I thought a 'powered hub' just meant that it gave the requisite 2.5w out of the usb port instead of the 'nonpowered' 100mW
  • [18:23:25] <djlewis_> 12ovAC id more fun
  • [18:23:42] <vasily_pupkin> in any case
  • [18:23:43] <djlewis_> 240vAC for you guys is yet even more colorful
  • [18:24:03] <mru> bkero: no, that's a powering hub
  • [18:24:03] <av500> a powered hub can supply 500mA on each port
  • [18:24:04] <av500> a non powered hub can supply 500mA in totla
  • [18:24:04] <vasily_pupkin> i have hub, that have port for AC
  • [18:24:06] <vasily_pupkin> i have USB-to-AC cable
  • [18:24:07] <av500> total
  • [18:24:15] * rodrigo_golive (~rodrigo_g@nat/mandriva/x-hxsxvpxbpeqkojeb) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  • [18:24:16] <av500> (in general)
  • [18:24:19] <vasily_pupkin> and i put it from PC HUB to this shit hub
  • [18:24:20] <vasily_pupkin> ????
  • [18:24:21] <vasily_pupkin> :]
  • [18:26:41] * PBansal (~pbansal@nat/ti/x-xhicucurwfasenmu) has joined #beagle
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  • [18:33:36] <vasily_pupkin> hm. looks like d-link with external AC works ok
  • [18:33:56] <vasily_pupkin> but +1 external AC.. :(
  • [18:34:08] <av500> omg
  • [18:35:27] <vasily_pupkin> av500: how do you think, use this shit, or backpowered shit?
  • [18:39:57] * ddd__ (8bb386d4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.139.179.134.212) has joined #beagle
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  • [18:49:28] * dl9pf (~quassel@opensuse/member/dl9pf) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [18:50:31] <vasily_pupkin> I gave up
  • [18:50:45] <av500> and joined the dark side?
  • [18:50:59] <vasily_pupkin> and use real-powered d-link
  • [18:51:04] <av500> good
  • [18:51:12] * jevin (~jevin@cparch14.ecn.purdue.edu) has joined #beagle
  • [18:52:15] <vasily_pupkin> bad. i use almost all outlets
  • [18:52:28] <vasily_pupkin> i have ~15
  • [18:52:36] <vasily_pupkin> and use them all >_<
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  • [18:57:28] <jkridner> koen: :( libxcb build fails.
  • [18:58:07] <jamuraa> koen: thanks for that tip, it is working now w/ omapdmaifbsink with videotestsrc, now to get it working with v4l2src
  • [18:59:03] * mrcan (~harika@88.246.222.164) Quit ()
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  • [18:59:39] <ddd__> is it true? whatever you make change of the file "packages/ti/sdo/ce/video/videnc.c" in code engine, it will never affect compiling successfully. i mean making in codec/, server/all_codec and apps/video_copy folders.
  • [19:00:46] * kevinsc (~a0214685@nat/ti/x-umwbcjprqkwgherq) has joined #beagle
  • [19:01:05] * naeg (~naeg@194.208.239.170) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2)
  • [19:02:28] <koen> jkridner: python error?
  • [19:02:35] <jkridner> yeah.
  • [19:02:43] * _roger_1 (~a0740758@nat/ti/x-smompmncwljawoan) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  • [19:02:48] <jkridner> missing module: xcbgen.state
  • [19:03:03] <jkridner1> seems other people have run into this before.
  • [19:03:43] <jkridner1> I'll try "apt-get install python-xcbgen"
  • [19:06:37] <koen> I ran into it today as well, it worked before
  • [19:07:42] <jkridner1> still fails. :(
  • [19:07:50] * ceyusa (~vjaquez@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) Quit (Quit: leaving)
  • [19:08:06] <jamuraa> hmm, getting this on startup, also another kernel oops, from angstrom most recent I think - http://pastebin.org/446234 - something to be worried about?
  • [19:09:09] <koen> that one is harmless
  • [19:09:23] <koen> the driver team didn't test cpufreq until very recently
  • [19:09:35] <koen> so the scary warning hasn't been patched out
  • [19:09:41] <jamuraa> it looks like the other one is i2c mt9v113 oopsing out
  • [19:11:38] * RoHS (~cruxphoto@c-67-161-139-147.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #beagle
  • [19:13:02] <koen> are you using the uimage from /boot?
  • [19:13:54] * hrw|gone is now known as hrw
  • [19:15:10] * ice (cb9f240e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.159.36.14) has joined #beagle
  • [19:16:02] <jamuraa> I recompiled the kernel after enabling CONFIG_AR9170_USB
  • [19:16:54] <jamuraa> and rebuilt the whole image, unpacking the root and modules again, and replaced uImage on the vfat with the one from tmp-angstrom_2008_1/deploy/glibc/images/beagleboard
  • [19:17:18] * gregoiregentil (~gregoire@c-69-181-223-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #beagle
  • [19:17:26] <jkridner> koen: is OE using a different python than the host?
  • [19:17:40] <jkridner> er, than the non-OE environment.
  • [19:17:56] * rcn-ee_ (ccdd4cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.221.76.252) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
  • [19:18:05] * jkridner doesn't understand why xcbgen.state could still be missing.
  • [19:20:55] <koen> jkridner: I tried 'bitbake -c clean python-native' and after that it was using xcbgen from the host
  • [19:21:00] <ddd__> anyone has tried to debug the file "packages/ti/sdo/ce/video/videnc.c" when using codec engine? it is the file to make XDM-compliant for DSP code.
  • [19:21:19] <koen> jkridner: I think we need to add python-xcbgen(-native) to OE
  • [19:22:13] <av500> ddd__: what are you trying to do?
  • [19:25:51] <ddd__> av500, when you try to write your own dsp code, such as "VIDENC_process()", which will call the file "packages/ti/sdo/ce/video/videnc.c", but whatever i made change of it, it never affects compiling.
  • [19:26:05] * ice (cb9f240e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.159.36.14) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  • [19:27:32] <ddd__> even though, you delete all file "packages/ti/sdo/ce/video/videnc.c", it can still compile successfully. but the result is wrong of course.
  • [19:27:35] <av500> ddd__: I think you are mixing up gpp and dsp side
  • [19:27:46] <av500> packages/ti/sdo/ce/video/videnc.c is gpp side
  • [19:27:55] <av500> and the ce libs are already compiled
  • [19:28:11] <av500> deleting that code might not rebuild them if you build your app
  • [19:28:13] <ddd__> but it is after eng created,
  • [19:28:26] <av500> and anyway, there is no need to touch that code
  • [19:29:15] <ddd__> so where is the dsp code for video_copy?
  • [19:29:54] <av500> examples/ti/sdo/ce/examples/codecs/
  • [19:30:16] <av500> examples/ti/sdo/ce/examples/codecs/viddec_copy/viddec_copy.c
  • [19:30:27] <av500> its a codec, os its in codecs
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  • [20:01:03] <jkridner> koen: didn't work for me.
  • [20:02:24] <ddd__> thx, av500
  • [20:02:27] * ddd__ (8bb386d4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.139.179.134.212) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
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  • [20:18:20] <jkridner> koen: any other ideas?!?
  • [20:18:24] * rhim (836b0053@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.0.83) has joined #beagle
  • [20:18:41] * jkridner wouldn't know where to start to make python-xbcgen
  • [20:18:54] <rhim> Can anyone tell if BeagleBoard supports ARM trustzone
  • [20:19:10] <rhim> I know that processor has the support
  • [20:19:23] <av500> not sure about the GP version
  • [20:19:28] <av500> the HS does for sure
  • [20:19:29] <jkridner> rhim: it isn't a secure device, but you could run some trustzone software, not full.
  • [20:19:43] <rhim> Is this left accessible after bootloader
  • [20:19:45] <jkridner> rhim: in a simple answer, no.
  • [20:20:08] <av500> rhim: and trustzone is $$ and NDA etc
  • [20:20:30] <rhim> really! I thought it is part of Cortex A8 feature set
  • [20:20:34] <mru> it is
  • [20:20:45] <mru> but it's up to the secure monitor what it lets you do
  • [20:20:49] <rhim> So I don't understand the $$ and NDA part
  • [20:20:51] <av500> it is still $$ and NDA etc
  • [20:20:51] <mru> and the omap3 GP rom doesn't
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  • [20:21:09] <av500> rhim: what is there not to understand?
  • [20:21:54] <mru> remember that guy on the ml who claimed he'd hacked trustzone?
  • [20:21:58] <rhim> Dumb question: is there a way to get a different ROM for the boards I already have?
  • [20:22:12] <mru> sure, but not a working one
  • [20:22:27] <mru> you can get a different one simply by applying enough heat
  • [20:22:59] <rhim> av500: where can I find the HS version?
  • [20:23:10] <av500> rhim: what part of RO you do not understand?
  • [20:23:17] <av500> rhim: find?
  • [20:23:22] <av500> you can order it from TI
  • [20:23:32] <av500> $$$ and NDA and a minimum of 10k or so
  • [20:23:39] <jkridner> rhim: if you get HS parts, you can use the design materials to build you own BeagleBoard with one on it.
  • [20:23:40] <rhim> ohhh
  • [20:23:46] <av500> :)
  • [20:24:03] <av500> but you will be *secure*, small price to pay for that :)
  • [20:25:09] <rhim> av500: Well, e.g., BIOS on the PCs can be updated, even though it resides in ROM
  • [20:25:17] <av500> no
  • [20:25:25] <av500> it is not a ROM
  • [20:25:30] <av500> its EEPROM
  • [20:25:36] <av500> or FLASH
  • [20:25:37] <rhim> ahh, you are right
  • [20:25:40] <av500> nowadays
  • [20:25:54] <av500> this is RROM
  • [20:25:55] <rhim> I thought there would be a similar deal for beagle board as well
  • [20:25:58] <av500> *real* ROM
  • [20:25:59] <rhim> Bummer
  • [20:26:01] <dm8tbr> it used to be socketed :)
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  • [20:27:36] <av500> dm8tbr: BB ROM was never socketed
  • [20:27:51] <dm8tbr> av500: IBM-PC
  • [20:28:01] <rhim> well, thanks guys
  • [20:28:05] <av500> np
  • [20:28:15] <dm8tbr> BBROM is most likely somewhere on the die :)
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  • [20:28:23] <rhim> it is sad that I didn't figure it out before I bought the board :-(
  • [20:28:29] <rhim> But ...
  • [20:28:31] <av500> I'll take it
  • [20:29:12] <rhim> Oh, I am sure I will find some use for it - not just this specific one :-)
  • [20:29:18] * av500 wonder about M$ love for ARM these days...
  • [20:29:25] <rhim> tata
  • [20:29:33] * rhim (836b0053@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.0.83) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
  • [20:30:26] * prpplague wonders why rhim wanted to change the boot rom?
  • [20:30:36] <av500> to have trust
  • [20:30:43] <av500> m$ has so little of it
  • [20:31:17] * eAndrius (~andrius@88-222-169-44.meganet.lt) has joined #beagle
  • [20:31:56] <prpplague> av500: ahh
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  • [20:44:45] <sakoman_> jkridner: where would I find your xM x-load repository?
  • [20:45:03] * neo01124 (~neo@122.177.111.37) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  • [20:45:16] <jkridner> http://gitorious.org/beagleboard-validation/x-load
  • [20:46:30] <sakoman_> jkridner: which branch is the "one"?
  • [20:47:03] <jkridner> The "one" is the patch set in OE/Angstrom.
  • [20:48:13] <jkridner> http://gitorious.org/beagleboard-validation/x-load/commit/a25b926ff963a1866e26b11a4dac742564618375 is the only significant patch.
  • [20:49:03] <jkridner> somehow, micron support got in there--probably from you.
  • [20:49:26] <sakoman_> jkridner: right, that is what my original xM had on it
  • [20:49:46] * TheUni (~quassel@xbmc/staff/theuni) has joined #beagle
  • [20:49:50] <sakoman_> I take it that Micron 512MB is now history for the xM?
  • [20:50:29] * prpplague looks in
  • [20:51:26] <koen> sort off
  • [20:52:06] <mru> what was the problem?
  • [20:52:13] <mru> does anyone know?
  • [20:52:36] <koen> not for sure
  • [20:53:07] <mru> any guesses?
  • [20:56:25] <sakoman_> koen: so I could push the 2 patches you are carrying in OE for Beagle?
  • [20:56:59] <sakoman_> I want to get things up to date for xM before I push some other stuff
  • [20:57:43] * vasily_pupkin (~avatar@love-n-peace.if.ua) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  • [20:58:18] <koen> sure
  • [20:58:39] <sakoman_> OK, will do that now
  • [20:58:47] <koen> there's an x-load upstream now?
  • [20:59:01] <sakoman_> no -- just my gitorious repo
  • [20:59:11] <sakoman_> the one you are using in the OE recipe
  • [20:59:15] <koen> ah
  • [20:59:30] <sakoman_> I have some Overo stuff I want to push
  • [20:59:39] <sakoman_> and later some OMAP4 stuff
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  • [21:00:09] <sakoman_> But to be honest I really want to see x-load die a well deserved death ;-)
  • [21:00:28] * vasily_pupkin (~avatar@love-n-peace.if.ua) has joined #beagle
  • [21:00:33] <prpplague> sakoman_: indeed
  • [21:02:23] * koen wonders when the ES1.3 ID patches are going to hit l-o
  • [21:05:09] * av500 slowly beats omap_vout.c into submission
  • [21:06:23] <koen> 'fout' means wrong in dutch
  • [21:06:36] <koen> some people misspell it as 'vout'
  • [21:06:55] <av500> whoever had the idea to use v4l2 for video output should not meet me
  • [21:09:31] <koen> meetme.ti.com?
  • [21:10:24] <av500> LiveHealthyAtTI.com - Wellness Assessment
  • [21:10:31] <av500> i can asses that
  • [21:10:44] <Ceriand|work> av500: if I ever meet the person that did the OMAP USB integration, it probably won't be pretty
  • [21:11:06] <av500> tag team?
  • [21:11:11] <Ceriand|work> heh, sure
  • [21:11:28] <av500> koen: set it up!
  • [21:11:41] <koen> I think I can find some folding chairs
  • [21:11:58] <av500> I will bring a nice chair
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  • [21:12:51] * Ceriand|work starts cleaning his clue-stick
  • [21:13:25] <koen> I have some clue-by-4s if you your run out of them
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  • [21:27:02] <jamuraa> anyone know off hand which oe package has the iw tool in it
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  • [21:31:04] <Laksen> Would anyone here know where I should ask for a technical reference to the PowerVR SGX?
  • [21:31:41] <av500> imagination technologies
  • [21:32:02] <av500> the details are all under NDA
  • [21:32:40] * kulve (6b0462cdc9@humboldt.pingu.fi) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [21:32:52] <Laksen> Okay, the best information I got from their site told me to ask the IP implementor
  • [21:33:14] <av500> you can get the binary driver from TI
  • [21:33:19] * zuh (894392d17e@humboldt.pingu.fi) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  • [21:34:38] <Laksen> I know, but I was interested in implementing a driver myself
  • [21:34:54] <Laksen> Guess I'll try to ask Imagination Tech.
  • [21:34:56] <Laksen> Thanks
  • [21:35:04] <av500> you can get a more detailed DDK for like 250k$
  • [21:35:31] <av500> or buy a lot of omap3 chips
  • [21:35:50] <Laksen> Well, I guess it wouldn't be much of an idea to ask then... :)
  • [21:36:04] * jayabharath (~a0866114@nat/ti/x-spyvndueqpvkjywh) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  • [21:36:24] <av500> Laksen: imgtec seems to be pretty secretive about stuff like that
  • [21:36:31] <ant___> google for Matrox m3d
  • [21:36:33] <av500> see intel GMA500 and the drivers for that
  • [21:36:42] <av500> which are also imgtec stuff
  • [21:37:16] <ant___> I find it almost unbelievable they survived last decade
  • [21:37:31] <ant___> they had indeed good project in the desk
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  • [22:21:13] <MostAwesomeDude> Laksen: #dri-devel is the Mesa channel.
  • [22:21:22] <MostAwesomeDude> We've been wanting docs for a *long* time.
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  • [22:37:40] <nuno_> I have a question regarding trustzones
  • [22:38:00] <nuno_> does anyone know if the beagleboard supports trustzones?
  • [22:39:44] <mru> we already answered that
  • [22:40:14] <mru> what makes you think you'll get a more pleasing answer this time?
  • [22:41:59] <nuno_> sorry, where can i find the answer?
  • [22:42:45] <mru> in the manuals
  • [22:43:08] <nuno_> i can be more specific
  • [22:43:38] <nuno_> apparently the bb boots in secure mode, but at some point it exits to insecure world
  • [22:43:43] <nuno_> (/normal world)
  • [22:43:59] <mru> yes, read the manual
  • [22:44:01] <mru> it's all there
  • [22:44:10] <nuno_> and i want to setup my own secure environment before it switches to insecure world
  • [22:44:21] <mru> and the answer we gave here a few hours ago still stands
  • [22:44:25] <nuno_> but apparently this is done by the ROM
  • [22:45:29] <nuno_> is there a way to override this?
  • [22:45:53] <mru> which part of ROM is difficult to understand?
  • [22:46:15] * calculus (~calculus@gentoo/user/calculus) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  • [22:47:39] <nuno_> are you referring to the 'bb system reference manual' or is there another one?
  • [22:47:50] <mru> the OMAP3 TRM
  • [22:47:56] <mru> and various ARM manuals
  • [22:48:03] <mru> I'm sure you can find them
  • [22:48:10] <nuno_> ok, thanks
  • [22:48:11] <mru> we're not here to do your job
  • [22:48:30] <nuno_> sure, i understand that, just looking for some initial pointer
  • [22:49:01] <mru> which we gave you already
  • [22:49:10] <mru> coming back with a new nick will not make us happier
  • [22:49:32] <nuno_> sorry, i don't know what you are talking about...
  • [22:49:50] <nuno_> this is the first time i join
  • [22:49:53] <mru> are you saying two people from microsoft are asking the same question on the same day?
  • [22:50:09] <nuno_> maybe it was another coleague of mine
  • [22:50:12] <emeb> someone with nick 'rhim' was here 2 hours ago asking the same question
  • [22:50:20] <nuno_> ah, ok!
  • [22:50:29] <nuno_> i know him
  • [22:50:36] <emeb> here's the TRM: http://www.ti.com/litv/pdf/sprugw3
  • [22:50:43] <nuno_> ok, thanks, i didn't want to bug you guys
  • [22:50:44] <emeb> there's a section on the boot process.
  • [22:51:08] <nuno_> thank you so much!
  • [22:51:08] <emeb> np - good luck
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  • [22:52:55] <emeb> oops - that was just the changes. here's the full TRM: http://www.ti.com/litv/pdf/spruf98g
  • [22:53:43] <nuno_> great! thanks again!
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  • [22:56:33] <tim__> Hi there, I hope someone can help me, I've recently started playing with my beagleboard, and I've been trying to get Angstrom to run on it. I've used the angstrom setup scripts to build an image, and put the Angstrom X-11 test image on the 2nd partition. But I get a kernel panic on boot up.
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  • [22:56:48] <tim__> I'm not too sure where to go next to try fix the problem
  • [22:57:10] <emeb> post kernel boot log on pastebin and send us a link
  • [22:57:11] <mru> tim__: please pastebin the exact error
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  • [22:58:30] <_av500_> inb4 musb crash
  • [22:58:35] <tim__> http://pastebin.com/UARvtRq0
  • [22:59:00] <mru> ah, missing /dev/console
  • [22:59:27] <mru> looks like the sd card wasn't unmounted properly
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  • [23:01:28] <tim__> ok, is it just a case of sticking in the SD card reader, and trying to unmount properly -- or do I have to rewrite the image again?
  • [23:02:01] <mru> do it over
  • [23:02:30] <emeb> "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
  • [23:02:42] <tim__> hehe.. ok thanks
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  • [23:11:15] <tim__> that seems to have made all the difference, thanks very much!
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  • [23:32:49] <nzc> Hello, all. I have a question regarding ubuntu on a Beagleboard rev C4.
  • [23:33:59] <nzc> I've followed the instructions at http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardUbuntu#Ubuntu_Software
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  • [23:34:21] <nzc> and I have a text console. What do I need to do to get X windows running?
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  • [23:40:48] <nzc> A pointer to an "M" to "RTF" would be gratefully accepted.
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