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  • [01:54:29] <gkarabi1> anyone here ever play around with the HUSH shell option for u-boot?
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  • [02:46:40] <nomis> hush was the more-bourne-like, right?
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  • [03:06:52] <gkarabin> Yep. If I understand correctly, it's lifted from busybox.
  • [03:07:29] <gkarabin> Playing with it on an omap3evm in advance of getting a beagle, I hope.
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  • [06:29:33] <NeuroTech> evening
  • [06:30:17] <NeuroTech> what is the current status of the USB issues?
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  • [08:56:05] <shoragan> Any news on the beagle board draw from LinuxTag?
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  • [09:09:33] <koen> shoragan: iirc there was a communication deadlock between berlin and houston
  • [09:19:22] * NeuroTech (n=NeuroTec@adsl-75-51-176-138.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) has joined #Beagle
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  • [10:17:38] <jkridner> gm
  • [10:18:03] <jkridner> shoragan: sorry, still working out the announcement.
  • [10:20:55] <ali_as_> jkridner, any idea why koen's pixel clock was so low on the 1600x1200 test?
  • [10:21:21] <jkridner> I'd need to see the source file.
  • [10:21:29] <jkridner> just depends how he calculated it.
  • [10:21:53] <jkridner> I didn't see that he shared the source, did you?
  • [10:24:50] <ali_as_> I didn't, but fbset says 48MHz.
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  • [10:26:07] <jkridner> sure, but it is programmable.
  • [10:26:54] <jkridner> the source file should have what he programmed the divider with.
  • [10:33:01] <jkridner> koen: http://www.openssl.org/source/openssl-0.9.7g.tar.gz checksum failed.
  • [10:47:06] <koen> ali_as_: http://source.mvista.com/git/gitweb.cgi?p=linux-omap-2.6.git;a=blob_plain;f=drivers/video/omap/lcd_omap3beagle.c;hb=95b7cf930defdeb639c0b0d6220be738402c36c7
  • [10:47:14] * koen loves drivers being upstream :)
  • [10:48:18] <ali_as_> I have no idea what upstream means in that context.
  • [10:48:24] <jkridner> ah, so LCD_PIXCLOCK is 64000.
  • [10:48:38] <jkridner> I guess you didn't change that when going to 1600x1200?
  • [10:49:04] <koen> I changed that to 65000
  • [10:49:31] <koen> md5sum openssl-0.9.7g.tar.gz
  • [10:49:31] <koen> 991615f73338a571b6a1be7d74906934 openssl-0.9.7g.tar.gz
  • [10:51:04] <jkridner> 0ab48c7834f5ed6933fb63bdf3ee346e sources/openssl-0.9.7g.tar.gz
  • [10:51:16] <jkridner> rm and retry?
  • [10:51:40] <koen> yeah
  • [10:51:42] <jkridner> is this a product of having something stale on my system and 'bitbake' updating parts, but not all?
  • [10:52:26] <koen> no, it starts looking like a) your RAM is bad b) your disk is bad c) your ISP is messing with you
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  • [10:52:51] <jkridner> hmmm.
  • [10:53:04] <koen> jkridner: my other question is why it is downloading openssl 0.9.7g
  • [10:53:05] <ldesnogu> hell
  • [10:53:06] <ldesnogu> o
  • [10:53:11] <jkridner> I'm running this on my amazon ec2 machine.
  • [10:53:27] <koen> angstrom uses 0.9.7m on the host and 0.9.8g for the target
  • [10:53:36] <jkridner> I'm still running task-base, rather than console-image
  • [10:53:57] <jkridner> hmmm. think I'm pulling from the wrong distro?
  • [10:54:53] <jkridner> OE Build Configuration:
  • [10:54:53] <jkridner> BB_VERSION = "1.8.10"
  • [10:54:53] <jkridner> OE_REVISION = "9baaea2c747482336eaf77e055c74f2f21596957"
  • [10:54:53] <jkridner> TARGET_ARCH = "arm"
  • [10:54:54] <jkridner> TARGET_OS = "linux-gnueabi"
  • [10:54:54] <jkridner> MACHINE = "beagleboard"
  • [10:54:55] <jkridner> DISTRO = "angstrom"
  • [10:54:57] <jkridner> DISTRO_VERSION = "2008.1-test-20080607"
  • [10:54:59] <jkridner> TARGET_FPU = "hard"
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  • [10:55:58] <jkridner> koen: what is your 3 line patch to omap_lcd_omap3beagle.c?
  • [10:56:32] <ali_as_> 65000, 1200 and 1600 changes I'm guessing?
  • [10:56:43] <koen> and change bits to 16
  • [10:56:53] <koen> otherwise it won't fit in the 4MB dma memory
  • [10:57:10] <jkridner> LCD_XRES, LCD_YRES, and LCD_PIXCLOCK .. and .bpp?
  • [10:57:18] <koen> jkridner: your OE checkout is about a month old: 'mtn pull ; mtn up'
  • [10:57:30] <koen> jkridner: yes (so it were 4 lines)
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  • [11:36:33] * jkridner is becoming a cscope fan.
  • [11:52:45] <koen> cscope rocks :)
  • [13:09:44] <ldesnogu> do you use some front end to cscope?
  • [13:10:28] <jkridner> I only installed and invoked cscope for the first time today. :) I only did 'export EDITOR=vim', because I'm one of those. :)
  • [13:11:02] <jkridner> my 'mtn pull' has been taking forever.
  • [13:11:35] <sakoman> jkridner: in my experience that is normal. pulls are *really* slow
  • [13:30:01] <koen> sakoman: any thoughts on http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ports.arm.omap/8709 ?
  • [13:32:53] <sakoman> koen: I'm sure it is possible :-)
  • [13:33:33] <sakoman> But I don't know exactly how to do it
  • [13:33:56] <sakoman> Things have changed in the kernel since the last time I mucked around in this area
  • [13:34:22] <sakoman> I really need to find out why I can't use the video out on my beagleboard
  • [13:34:42] * jkridner is surprised.
  • [13:34:52] <sakoman> I suspect running it through a KVM is the issue
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  • [13:35:00] <jkridner> sakoman: what are you using?
  • [13:35:07] <jkridner> you have a DVI-D KVM?
  • [13:35:13] <jkridner> I haven't even seen those yet.
  • [13:35:27] <sakoman> IOGear 4 port DVI KVM
  • [13:35:33] <jkridner> good evening Khasim.
  • [13:35:46] <jkridner> have you tried to bypass it?
  • [13:36:05] <keesj> csoope indeed rules . i also installed the vim plugin
  • [13:36:50] <sakoman> jkridner: no I'm trying to avoid getting distracted by the video stuff until I finish audio!
  • [13:37:11] <keesj> kscope the kde brother of cscope is also pretty handy( if you like real gui's)
  • [13:37:51] <sakoman> keesj: I've been playing with Kscope and it is pretty cool
  • [13:38:23] <sakoman> jkridner: I have a spare LCD monitor that I plan to drag out Real Soon Now
  • [13:39:04] <sakoman> I'll do initial testing with that, but I really want to get the KVM working since my desk is too cluttered as it is!
  • [13:42:03] <jkridner> I'd guess that the KVM doesn't like the clock range for the given resolution, but that's just a guess.
  • [13:43:55] <jkridner> khasim: what are these new OMAP3430 patches on the linux-omap? They look old.
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  • [13:57:04] <ldesnogu> koen: regarding the edid stuff there was some discussion on cbe-oss-dev ML for the PS3 a few months ago; don't know if it would be applicable though
  • [14:26:47] <koen> jkridner: they are addressed to LAKML
  • [14:26:58] <koen> jkridner: so they are meant for RMK -> Linus
  • [14:27:09] <koen> ldesnogu: ah, good to know
  • [14:27:23] <koen> jkridner: so omap3 has a good chance of being in 2.6.27
  • [14:27:34] <koen> jkridner: and (if all goes well) beagleboard in 2.6.28
  • [14:28:27] <jkridner> ah. just copied back on linux-omap for our information?
  • [14:28:58] <koen> yes
  • [14:29:19] <koen> I guess we'll be copied on all the moaning RMK will do as well
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  • [15:55:41] <koen> sakoman: did you narrow down the problem with the pcm clock yet?
  • [15:58:46] <NeuroTech> koen: Do you currently test on a Rev B board at the moment?
  • [16:01:35] <koen> no, an A5 board
  • [16:02:05] <koen> you can see the revision on http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/2420765852/sizes/l/
  • [16:10:40] <NeuroTech> neat
  • [16:10:48] <NeuroTech> i noticed jason offering Rev B boards
  • [16:11:06] <NeuroTech> still not 100% sure on what the USB issue really amounts to
  • [16:11:39] <jkridner> not really offering yet. Trying to get an idea how much demand so that we can start production
  • [16:11:47] <NeuroTech> ahhh
  • [16:11:57] <jkridner> some boards are in fab now, but we want to start loading up.
  • [16:12:23] <jkridner> I think it was a mistake to really talk much about Rev. C. I might remove that info from the site and focus more on what IS possible with Rev. B.
  • [16:12:34] <jkridner> still, I want people to know that we are adding a 2nd USB port in the future.
  • [16:12:41] <NeuroTech> how significant is the USB issue
  • [16:12:49] <jkridner> big difference is the ability to use USB as power at the same time as USB as a host.
  • [16:12:52] <NeuroTech> i mean, could you make the OTG port, device only
  • [16:13:00] <jkridner> OTG port works fine.
  • [16:13:04] <jkridner> as device and host.
  • [16:13:11] <NeuroTech> then what doesn't work?
  • [16:13:20] <jkridner> there is a 2nd USB port, the EHCI port, which is host only, that doesn't work reliably.
  • [16:13:31] <NeuroTech> aahhhhh
  • [16:13:41] <jkridner> so, we will remove the connector from the initial production boards.
  • [16:13:55] <koen> the port and ehci work, the phy is being troublesome
  • [16:14:04] * jkridner|work (n=a0321898@nat/ti/x-77595e62c9ff526e) has joined #beagle
  • [16:14:32] <NeuroTech> couldn't someone attach a PHY with leads
  • [16:14:37] <jkridner> well, phy or controller doesn't make much difference to an end user...
  • [16:14:53] <jkridner> the result is that you cannot reliably use the EHCI host port.
  • [16:15:10] <jkridner> so, you can either use the OTG port in device/gadget mode (and power)...
  • [16:15:27] <jkridner> or, you can use it as a host, which requires an adapter cable and an alternate power source.
  • [16:15:38] <NeuroTech> sounds reasonable
  • [16:15:44] <koen> rev B doesn't have the wire mod, right?
  • [16:15:48] <jkridner> Crofton and koen have Rev. A5 boards, which required them to make mods to use alternate power.
  • [16:16:02] <koen> since that's only needed if you don't have shunt connected to the power sockert
  • [16:16:03] <jkridner> rev B does not require the wire mod. you can just plug in a 5V supply.
  • [16:16:53] <jkridner> I hope it is all really clear now. I'm still trying to figure out just the right formula for communicating the issue.
  • [16:17:18] <koen> the neo1973 had the same problem
  • [16:17:38] <jkridner> meaning the neo1973 had only 1 USB port?
  • [16:17:45] <koen> "powermanagement doesn't work, will work in the next revision which will also have wifi"
  • [16:17:46] <jkridner> did it have a power connection as well?
  • [16:17:55] <NeuroTech> Its becoming clearer now
  • [16:18:22] <koen> jkridner: people got confused between the neo revisions and models
  • [16:19:08] <jkridner> which means that we don't want to do too many Rev. B boards, but I need to start getting some dev going. the demand for Rev. B's is quite high still.
  • [16:19:41] <jkridner> it seems to matter a lot to folks that already have Rev. A/B boards, but those without want to get into the camp that has Rev B boards. :)
  • [16:20:12] * jkridner must run some errands.
  • [16:20:21] <NeuroTech> before you go
  • [16:20:35] <NeuroTech> i'll email you... might order a rev B board when available
  • [16:23:07] <NeuroTech> koen: what is your background, i'm an EEG tech with some electronics background
  • [16:24:07] <koen> I'm studying EE, embedded stuff is my hobbyy
  • [16:25:01] <NeuroTech> I do some linux work, but my day job is providing tech support for an EEG Biofeedback system
  • [16:25:32] <NeuroTech> our boss tells clients its "state of the art!"... I almost choke
  • [17:15:33] * BThompson (n=BThompso@cpe-76-185-93-11.tx.res.rr.com) has joined #beagle
  • [17:23:46] <jkridner> The page itself is a bit stale, but, here is the first pass at the free C64x compiler: https://www-a.ti.com/downloads/sds_support/targetcontent/LinuxDspTools/download
  • [17:24:56] <jkridner|work> typo: here it is cut-and-paste: https://www-a.ti.com/downloads/sds_support/targetcontent/LinuxDspTools/download.html
  • [17:25:03] <jkridner|work> forgot the .html the first time.
  • [17:25:50] <jkridner> enjoy!
  • [17:28:00] <NeuroTech> Jason, are you looking for people to buy the Rev B boards or no
  • [17:28:54] <NeuroTech> i would be interested if one becomes available
  • [17:29:01] * koen downloads
  • [17:30:12] <jkridner> drop a note to revb-request@beaglebo...
  • [17:30:25] <jkridner> that's where I'm keeping the list of requests.
  • [17:30:44] <NeuroTech> k
  • [17:30:56] <jkridner> this is just giving me an idea how many to build in the first production run.
  • [17:31:07] <NeuroTech> i kind of figured they weren't hand soldered :)
  • [17:31:34] <ldesnogu> jkridner: did you get a request from Ian @arm.com?
  • [17:31:38] <jkridner> nope. they are mostly machine assembled.
  • [17:31:41] <jkridner> yup.
  • [17:31:50] <ldesnogu> great :)
  • [17:31:52] <jkridner> for > 1.
  • [17:32:16] <ldesnogu> hope so, 1 is for me :)
  • [17:33:01] <jkridner> btw, we had good yield on our most recent pre-production run. we made it very small since our previous run was disastrous (we had rushed it).
  • [17:33:17] <NeuroTech> what went wrong on the rush run?
  • [17:33:20] <jkridner> hopefully our good yields will continue as we up the size of each run until we hit our production stride.
  • [17:33:36] <jkridner> solder mask on the PCBs.
  • [17:33:48] <jkridner> made all of the OMAP devices short out.
  • [17:33:54] <NeuroTech> that'll do it...
  • [17:34:10] <jkridner> well, don't bet money on me understanding the issue, but that is my best understanding.
  • [17:34:43] <NeuroTech> they are like $40-70 chips... that would have hurt
  • [17:35:01] <jkridner> it was not very fun. so, we stepped back to making a much smaller number.
  • [17:35:19] <jkridner> (and we waited a nice long time for the PCB house to get it right)
  • [17:35:41] <NeuroTech> one technique my friend uses for manual assembly, is put a pin on each corner, so it wont slide
  • [17:35:46] * koen wonders why all PCB projects I hear about go wrong
  • [17:36:10] <NeuroTech> could be worse, even seen how many XBox 360s fail
  • [17:36:14] <jkridner> when we are trying to do everything for $149, each mistake really counts. I'm not into burning money.
  • [17:36:40] <NeuroTech> I ber
  • [17:36:48] <jkridner> hehe. NeuroTech, that's not something you can do on BGAs. :)
  • [17:36:50] <NeuroTech> When I talk medical devices with friends
  • [17:37:18] <NeuroTech> they tell me to make sure there is a dual-use in mind, to avoid major problems
  • [17:37:41] <NeuroTech> actually, there is a method, but it involves laser heating of the pads ...
  • [17:38:14] <NeuroTech> handy if you just want to make a couple
  • [17:38:48] <koen> I know people that use a toaster oven controlled by an AVR :)
  • [17:39:25] <jkridner> toaster oven might be possible, if you have really tight control on the temp.
  • [17:39:47] <jkridner> no way for you to place the items by hand though, that I know.
  • [17:39:51] <koen> most ovens cat heat up fast enough
  • [17:39:57] <koen> can't*
  • [17:41:33] <NeuroTech> the trick with keeping costs down (so they say) is try not to change major parts, and give the pick-n-place files in the right format
  • [17:41:49] <ali_as_> jkridner, are these the B or the C boards?
  • [17:41:58] <NeuroTech> like in some of the designs, there would be two BGA chips... and the rest conventional
  • [17:43:23] <jkridner> Rev. B. C is under development and will take several months. I was hopeful it would only be a few weeks, but it doesn't look possible.
  • [17:43:55] <ali_as_> Ok, is it only the USB fix the C will add?
  • [17:44:10] <jkridner> so, if you want a board before Thanksgiving, you probably want a Rev. B.
  • [17:44:42] <koen> so Gerald really meant "autumn"
  • [17:45:03] <jkridner> yes, that is the only sold plan--adding the 2nd USB port.
  • [17:45:13] <jkridner> yes, he really did.
  • [17:45:36] <koen> I'm very happy with OTG working as host
  • [17:45:49] <ali_as_> Being in the UK, I don't even know when thanksgiving is. If the B's arn't in short supply I might go for one. I have a strange idea to use one as an email server initially.
  • [17:45:49] <jkridner> I was so looking forward to hearing good responses about getting the C6000 compiler out. I don't want to be brought down by Rev. C talk today. :)
  • [17:45:56] <jkridner> November.
  • [17:46:02] <koen> ali_as_: turkey time in november
  • [17:46:13] <NeuroTech> is it possible to get HDMI Audio to work?
  • [17:46:18] <jkridner> no.
  • [17:46:23] <ali_as_> I'm not by any means a hardcore developer, so I don't want to tread on the toes of people that are.
  • [17:46:37] <koen> jkridner: I downloaded it on my mac :)
  • [17:46:56] <koen> jkridner: and pointed Crofton|work to it, but he's in the middle of nowhere atm
  • [17:46:57] <jkridner> I mean, someone else could come up with a board that has true HDMI, but Beagle just has DVI-D.
  • [17:47:18] <koen> neuros OSD2 is said to have full hdmi
  • [17:47:18] <jkridner> I'd be very happy if someone made a board with true HDMI, but that won't be a Beagle.
  • [17:47:27] <koen> (minus drm)
  • [17:47:31] <NeuroTech> one reason why i'm checking out the OMAP3, is the DSP part
  • [17:47:31] <jkridner> koen: that is my understanding too.
  • [17:47:36] * khasim (n=a0393720@192.163.20.231) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  • [17:47:39] <NeuroTech> minus the DRM part... yeah
  • [17:48:31] <koen> jkridner: are there any plans for a davinci with a cortex CPU core?
  • [17:49:07] <jkridner> koen: product roadmaps are NDA.
  • [17:49:19] <koen> drat
  • [17:49:46] <koen> I should have paid more attention to rishis slides at bossa :)
  • [17:50:11] <NeuroTech> koen: i thought it already was like that - DaVinci DSP + Cortex
  • [17:50:50] <jkridner> you can think of OMAP3 like that. Cortex + DaVinci technology.
  • [17:51:42] <ali_as_> Now I'm extremely confused, as I also thought the omap3 was a cortex with a divinci dsp.
  • [17:52:10] <jkridner> it is.
  • [17:52:20] <ali_as_> Not that I'm that interested in the DSP, just a screamingly fast ARM.
  • [17:52:59] <jkridner> I interpreted koen's comment as something with 1080p, like DaVinci-HD.
  • [17:53:13] <ali_as_> Aha.
  • [17:53:21] <NeuroTech> jkrider: I might take a look at the HDMI part... because my goal is to make a pocket EEG Biofeedback
  • [17:54:05] <ali_as_> That would be quite cool. I'd agree that 1080p with video decoding would be awesome, but something of a monster and puts in in a totally different market.
  • [17:54:11] <koen> davinci has more video goodies
  • [17:54:16] <koen> like scalers and stuff
  • [17:54:21] <jkridner> http://www.dspdesignline.com/products/204400937
  • [17:54:40] <ali_as_> I'm interested in 1080p purely as a video resolution.
  • [17:54:49] <NeuroTech> i would be very suprised if they were able to get a Cortex chip upto 1080p
  • [17:54:49] <NeuroTech> thats true
  • [17:54:51] <NeuroTech> I was looking at a TS-7370 board, ARM9 + FPGA
  • [17:55:05] <koen> heh
  • [17:55:12] <koen> I hope you like BSD
  • [17:55:15] <NeuroTech> might be interesting to try putting a video core in FPGA
  • [17:55:30] <NeuroTech> oh? I have used BSD.. but i thought it was designed for linux
  • [17:55:48] <koen> the TS people are BSD trolls
  • [17:56:25] <NeuroTech> one of my friends is a BSD & linux kernel coder
  • [17:56:33] <NeuroTech> he didn't call his lawyer in until SCO
  • [17:56:54] <ali_as_> I considered that cirrus board. If it had been a xilinx FPGA I'd have bought it.
  • [17:57:04] <koen> I have nothing against BSD, but the TS folks are plain annoying
  • [17:57:12] <jkridner> koen: btw, I think you found that the compiler isn't very useful on your mac (if you weren't just teasing me about using a mac)
  • [17:57:25] <koen> jkridner: indeed :)
  • [17:57:26] <ali_as_> I've heard some bad things about Cirrus and linux developers though.
  • [17:57:34] <koen> ali_as_: heh
  • [17:57:40] <koen> ali_as_: that's an understatement
  • [17:57:40] <NeuroTech> they do have one with a cirrus board, xilinx
  • [17:58:05] <koen> ali_as_: http://lwn.net/Articles/230831/
  • [17:58:25] * koen also has a board with a cirrus ep9312 cpu
  • [17:58:33] <NeuroTech> any good?
  • [17:58:53] <koen> you can't really use the FPU due to silicon and toolchain bugs
  • [17:58:57] <NeuroTech> I've also checked out the MX31s from freescale
  • [17:59:05] <koen> but it has vga out,ethernet and ATA
  • [17:59:53] <ali_as_> Yeah, thats the Cirrus stabbing people in the back that I've heard about.
  • [18:01:31] <koen> Lennert and I lost interest in the linux port pretty fast
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  • [18:01:59] <koen> Lennert got hired by AD to do debian/EABI around that time
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  • [18:03:18] <NeuroTech> my connection dropped :(
  • [18:04:15] <ali_as_> wb.
  • [18:05:16] <NeuroTech> I remember how insane it was to get permission to release graphics driver code back to the community
  • [18:06:01] <NeuroTech> Ali, which FPGAs have you tried
  • [18:06:31] <koen> I was amazed how hard it was to get code done for the university to get released
  • [18:07:07] <sakoman> koen: making progress on the pcm stuff but was distracted debugging an issue with my solar installation's inverters yesterday
  • [18:07:43] <NeuroTech> koen: which university?
  • [18:08:03] <koen> NeuroTech: University of Twente (http://utwente.nl)
  • [18:08:39] <NeuroTech> k
  • [18:09:05] <koen> sakoman: I'd be happy to test any patches :)
  • [18:10:50] <ali_as_> NeuroTech, I was after a tightly coupled CPU to an FPGA, I've programmed a few Xilinx 4xxx and Spartan chips before. Now I figure what I actually need is a CPU tightly coupled to a FIFO chip coupled to an FPGA.
  • [18:11:11] <ali_as_> Err, wrong.
  • [18:11:17] <NeuroTech> i think QuickLogic have something vaguely like that
  • [18:11:25] <ali_as_> Now I figure what I actually need is a CPU tightly coupled to a FIFO chip coupled to a CPLD.
  • [18:11:31] <ali_as_> That.
  • [18:11:42] <NeuroTech> why CPLD, i thought FPGAs superceded them
  • [18:12:27] <ali_as_> FPGAs have fan in issues that limit the amount of complexity you can put in 1 pipeline stage.
  • [18:12:48] <ali_as_> They are also rather more fragile in my heavy handed experience.
  • [18:12:53] <NeuroTech> does anyone know how the log bot works, from when my connection dropped out
  • [18:13:18] <ali_as_> <koen> Lennert and I lost interest in the linux port pretty fast
  • [18:13:18] <ali_as_> * NeuroTech (n=NeuroTec@adsl-75-51-176-138.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  • [18:13:18] <ali_as_> <koen> Lennert got hired by AD to do debian/EABI around that time
  • [18:13:47] <NeuroTech> that was all
  • [18:13:49] <ali_as_> Then you joined again.
  • [18:14:13] <NeuroTech> [10:59] NeuroTech: the thing that got me interested in the OMAP35xx series is the OpenGL + DSP + Cortex combo
  • [18:14:13] <NeuroTech> [10:59] ali_as_: Yeah, thats the Cirrus stabbing people in the back that I've heard about.
  • [18:14:17] <NeuroTech> that was the last i recieved
  • [18:14:52] <NeuroTech> I think structured FPGAs might be where the future is
  • [18:14:53] <ali_as_> Thought so, next line was koen's that I pasted.
  • [18:15:10] <ali_as_> Structured meaning?
  • [18:16:01] <NeuroTech> like where the standard parts of a pipeline are fixed
  • [18:16:08] <NeuroTech> but the rest can be changed
  • [18:17:09] <NeuroTech> Lattice seem okay at this, but not all the way there
  • [18:17:10] <ali_as_> That might make the routing slightly simpler, but I don't see any advantages.
  • [18:17:52] <NeuroTech> certain functions can't easily be implemented in FPGA logic
  • [18:17:57] <NeuroTech> like HT 3 busses
  • [18:18:56] <NeuroTech> I'm kinda waiting on the Virtex-5 FX100T to come out... with dual PowerPC cores
  • [18:19:12] <sakoman> koen: not much to test yet :-(
  • [18:19:37] <ali_as_> Hypertransport bus, just looking that up.
  • [18:21:01] <NeuroTech> its hard to implement at speeds as high as a Opteron's implementation can go
  • [18:21:36] <NeuroTech> Sakoman: the PCM code is audio related right?
  • [18:21:43] <sakoman> yes
  • [18:21:53] <sakoman> alsa SoC driver
  • [18:21:53] <NeuroTech> i didn't think the BeagleBord had PCM out,
  • [18:22:12] <NeuroTech> i thought it was all I2S, to analog out
  • [18:22:14] <jkridner> it has stereo audio in and out.
  • [18:22:24] <jkridner> I2S is PCM, no
  • [18:22:26] <jkridner> ?
  • [18:22:37] <NeuroTech> oh i think i confused myself
  • [18:23:00] <NeuroTech> you are referring to PCM decoding in software...not hardware
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  • [18:24:06] <NeuroTech> it is... i was confused
  • [18:24:17] <NeuroTech> sorry...
  • [18:26:03] <koen> "I2S, or Inter-IC Sound, or Integrated Interchip Sound, is an electrical serial bus interface standard used for connecting digital audio devices together. It is most commonly used to carry PCM information between the CD transport and the DAC in a CD player. "
  • [18:26:29] <NeuroTech> yeap
  • [18:27:25] <NeuroTech> I been trying to convince a friend to upgrade to an ARM9(Atmel) for a project
  • [18:27:37] <koen> NeuroTech: at91?
  • [18:28:02] <NeuroTech> yeap
  • [18:28:14] <NeuroTech> going to buy a board from Olimex probably
  • [18:28:36] <NeuroTech> you see the orginal plan was to use a MP3 specific chip from Atmel
  • [18:28:46] <NeuroTech> and we realized that might not be such a good idea
  • [18:29:02] <NeuroTech> because we need to decode specific parts of the MP3 stream differently
  • [18:29:04] <koen> the at91 is plenty fast to decode MP3s
  • [18:29:05] <NeuroTech> to control lights
  • [18:29:24] <koen> (provided you use an integer based codec like libmad)
  • [18:29:53] <koen> with the omap3 you can even use a floating point based codec :)
  • [18:30:01] <NeuroTech> AT91 is fine... there is another chip (AT89C51SND) that is earlier core
  • [18:30:22] <koen> I only worked with the at91sam9263
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  • [18:32:42] <NeuroTech> we plan on testing on the ARM9 and go back to the ARM7 if the code can be tighened
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  • [18:35:10] <NeuroTech> koen: Which ARM supplier do you prefer
  • [18:36:15] <koen> I have no real preference
  • [18:36:55] <koen> (as long as it isn't an xscale)
  • [18:37:01] <NeuroTech> do you find it hard to switch suppliers?
  • [18:37:25] <koen> I work with dev boards, not with CPUs :)
  • [18:37:52] <NeuroTech> isn't Marvell so NDA bound you, you don't even know what they sell..
  • [18:38:55] <NeuroTech> one reason for going with Atmel, is they make chips that are QFP versions, which gives some chance for manual assembly
  • [18:39:47] <NeuroTech> have you bought from Olimex before?
  • [18:39:50] <koen> well, marvell will give you the info you need if you have the NDA, as opposed to Intel
  • [18:40:14] <NeuroTech> intel still wouldn't, with a NDA?
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  • [18:40:54] <koen> it took Lennert 6 months before he published an open letter to Intel on how they sucked
  • [18:41:14] <koen> (he signed a contract with marvell a few months later)
  • [18:42:03] <NeuroTech> I hope AMD bounces back
  • [18:42:05] <koen> haven't had any experience with olimex
  • [18:42:15] <NeuroTech> if not i'll get my buddy to fund a chip start-up
  • [18:42:22] <koen> (except bleeding eyes from looking at their website)
  • [18:43:27] <NeuroTech> what you think of the Atom chip?
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  • [18:43:37] <ali_as> AMD were only producing decent x86's due to hiring the ex alpha team members. Or at least that's how I remeber it.
  • [18:44:16] <koen> NeuroTech: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/risc-vs-cisc-mobile-era.ars/
  • [18:44:29] <NeuroTech> I think the HyperTransport bus has given them alot of benefit to AMD
  • [18:44:31] <koen> It's sad if half your powerbudget goes into instruction decode :)
  • [18:44:45] <ali_as> Is that the ATOM article?
  • [18:44:48] <koen> ali_as: the alpha team were some crazy people
  • [18:45:03] <NeuroTech> and yes, the HyperTransport came from Alpha AFAIK
  • [18:45:16] <koen> they had such a cool job description: "make the fastest CPU out there!"
  • [18:45:31] <koen> that's how you get designs with 8MiB of cache memory
  • [18:45:41] <ali_as> I so wanted an alpha.
  • [18:46:20] <ali_as> But the quotes were horrendous, just for a motherboard was several thousand pounds.
  • [18:46:24] <NeuroTech> want to research CPU design one of these days
  • [18:46:37] <ali_as> Even for the cut down chips they made to complete with x86.
  • [18:48:10] <NeuroTech> thats probably why they didn't suceed
  • [18:48:39] <NeuroTech> do you think the Cell BE would be nearly as profitable for IBM if it stayed high end
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  • [18:50:58] <ali_as> The alpha wasn't properly RISC though. I mean, string operations in microcode....
  • [18:52:06] <NeuroTech> why would they want that?
  • [18:52:36] <NeuroTech> FP math, i could understand, but string operations
  • [18:52:39] <ali_as> I don't know, I went through the instruction set about 10 years ago and there were some horrendously CISC stuff in there.
  • [18:54:08] <NeuroTech> some sort of hypervisor could handle the more horrendous CISC parts
  • [18:54:23] <NeuroTech> Apple OS X uses a hypervisor for OpenGL
  • [18:54:26] <ali_as> But at reduced performance.
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  • [18:55:19] <NeuroTech> IMHO a more efficient processor would run faster, to compensate
  • [18:55:48] <ali_as> Unlikley.
  • [18:56:37] <ali_as> You'd just be implimenting code no programmer would use in their right mind :)
  • [18:57:08] <NeuroTech> your not suggesting that I work for MS are you
  • [18:57:54] <ali_as> One of the foundation arguments of RISC is that most programmers only used a few dozen instructions.
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  • [18:58:41] <NeuroTech> I was under the impression that x86 became inefficient due to the instruction decode
  • [18:59:16] <NeuroTech> I would be curious to test a Virtex-5 FX100T chip with dual PowerPC cores
  • [19:00:42] <ali_as> Not sure about became. Memory used to be very expensive.
  • [19:01:27] <NeuroTech> as in CISC code took up less space
  • [19:01:36] <NeuroTech> tell that to microsoft :)
  • [19:02:55] <ali_as> I blame the microsoft hiring policy for the state of windows code.
  • [19:03:26] <NeuroTech> how so?
  • [19:05:08] <ali_as> The top 0.001% or whatever recruited out of university, pay peanuts, they stay for 2 years (which is the time needed to be on your CV to get a job somewhere well paying).
  • [19:05:25] <ali_as> The result is most of the code is written by very smart, but very inexperienced people.
  • [19:06:17] <NeuroTech> my friend hadn't even gone to college (still in high school) when he wrote the famous SMP code that went into BSD
  • [19:06:58] <NeuroTech> it was famous because SCO claimed IBM stole it from them
  • [19:07:54] <NeuroTech> he still does kernel coding, but most of it is testing patches
  • [19:07:56] <ali_as> If you have been coding for a very long time, then that counts as experience in my book, but most people leaving university don't have it.
  • [19:08:04] <NeuroTech> thats true
  • [19:09:47] <NeuroTech> its rare that a CS major does anything hugely exciting
  • [19:10:01] <NeuroTech> I'm thinking of going into medicine instead
  • [19:10:45] <ali_as> The CS students seemed to spend all their time playing doom when I was at university.
  • [19:10:49] <NeuroTech> healthcare Information Systems is a completely different ballgame
  • [19:11:20] <NeuroTech> they should find something open source
  • [19:11:30] <NeuroTech> at least that way they can code their game patches :)
  • [19:12:47] <koen> My last paying job at the university was helping CS students to crosscompile their code
  • [19:13:05] <koen> that quickly degenerated in "Write proper Makefiles"
  • [19:13:19] <koen> which meant I spent the bulk of my time rewriting theirs
  • [19:13:27] <NeuroTech> i can imagine
  • [19:13:33] <koen> I was happy when they switched to pure java :)
  • [19:13:41] <NeuroTech> one advantage of linux
  • [19:13:43] <ali_as> HAhaha.
  • [19:13:48] <NeuroTech> is that the kernel runs on multiple platforms
  • [19:13:58] <koen> (till I tried to crosscompile cvm with a gcc that wasn't versioned as 2.95.3)
  • [19:13:59] <ali_as> Java, for when C is too much effort.
  • [19:14:30] <koen> all: gcc foo.c -o c -I/usr/include -L/usr/lib -lbluetooth
  • [19:14:35] <NeuroTech> I was working with this guy, who wrote some EEG software
  • [19:14:39] <NeuroTech> it was spagetti code
  • [19:15:01] <NeuroTech> lacked clear data flow (signal flow) and methods and hooks
  • [19:15:28] <NeuroTech> slightly beagle related question
  • [19:15:40] <ali_as> A beagle question, in here?
  • [19:15:54] <ali_as> Outrageous.
  • [19:16:06] <NeuroTech> how hard would it be to add bluetooth and/or IrDA to the beagle
  • [19:16:24] <NeuroTech> for bluetooth, grab the SPI lines right?
  • [19:16:40] <NeuroTech> and IrDA, from one of the UARTs
  • [19:16:42] <ali_as> koen, actually, most of my makefiles look like that, I should have mips-uclinux-gcc as a variable.
  • [19:17:23] <NeuroTech> when i was hacking display drivers
  • [19:17:38] <NeuroTech> it was mostly changing makefiles and config files
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  • [19:19:35] <NeuroTech> do you ever write .NET code?
  • [19:21:43] <ali_as> Not sure who that was aimed at. I don't even touch C++.
  • [19:22:12] <NeuroTech> what do you code in?
  • [19:22:24] <ali_as> Mostly assembler.
  • [19:22:42] <ds2> you can use the USB port for IrDA and Bluetooth
  • [19:22:43] <NeuroTech> fun
  • [19:23:25] <ds2> BT should mostly just work unless you are doing HSP/HPP profiles in which case there are patches needed
  • [19:23:36] <NeuroTech> k
  • [19:23:39] <koen> ali_as: $(CC) foo.c -o foo $(CFLAGS) `pkgconfig --cflags --libs bluez`
  • [19:24:25] <NeuroTech> ds2: thanks, i'll check that out
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  • [19:24:40] <ali_as> That is what my makefiles should look like, a few of them do, but I'm still learning C.
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  • [19:25:41] <NeuroTech> do you still code for the 8051 series?
  • [19:25:43] <ds2> ewwwwwww pkgconfig
  • [19:26:16] <koen> pkgconfig rocks
  • [19:26:24] <koen> especially with the o-hand sysroot code
  • [19:26:40] <ds2> *YUCK* *YUCK*
  • [19:26:40] <ds2> *GAG*
  • [19:26:40] <koen> bluetooth on the beagle: http://rafb.net/p/LDiMWu88.txt
  • [19:26:50] <ds2> pkgconfig, ./configure, and all that wrapped compile crap is the spawn of the evil one
  • [19:27:26] <koen> autotools + pkgconfig is very crosscompile friendly
  • [19:27:44] <koen> as opposed to all the new fangled crap like cmake, scons, acr, etc
  • [19:28:05] <ali_as> To who Neuro?
  • [19:29:03] * koen <- build engineer
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  • [19:30:11] <NeuroTech> ali_as: i was referring to you , do you still write 8051
  • [19:30:20] <ali_as> Ahh, no never have.
  • [19:30:43] <ali_as> ARM, x86, MIPS, ST20.
  • [19:30:49] <NeuroTech> I'm still trying to convince the engineer that writing a Mp3 player in C is a good idea
  • [19:32:10] <ali_as> It may have some advantages, but it isn't a good idea ;)
  • [19:32:29] <ali_as> It will probably use more power than a dedicated mp3 chip.
  • [19:32:48] <ali_as> And need a more expensive cpu.
  • [19:32:51] <NeuroTech> there is C code available under a BSD type license
  • [19:33:15] <NeuroTech> dedicated MP3 chip might not work.. cause we need to decode extra data from the stream
  • [19:33:36] <NeuroTech> should convince him to use a OMAP3503 ? :)
  • [19:34:03] <ali_as> I hope it's not portable ;)
  • [19:34:37] <ali_as> Tell him you need an alpha chip in it.
  • [19:34:51] <NeuroTech> do they make alphas anymore?
  • [19:34:56] <ali_as> For audiophile grade mp3 decoding.
  • [19:34:56] <NeuroTech> and yes, it is portable
  • [19:35:02] <ali_as> Not that I'm aware.
  • [19:36:00] <NeuroTech> why wouldn't u use a OMAP3503 in a portable device
  • [19:36:13] <NeuroTech> its not like a desktop chip in CPU draw
  • [19:38:18] <ali_as> Relative to previous ARMs I see the Cortex A8 as being quite power hungry.
  • [19:38:48] <ali_as> And also quite large, silicon area wise.
  • [19:39:29] <NeuroTech> thats true
  • [19:40:00] <NeuroTech> it depends on the application
  • [19:40:38] <NeuroTech> like the companion chips for the ATOM are power hogs
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  • [19:43:39] <NeuroTech> wb sakoman
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