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  • [00:00:31] * Topic is 'http://beagleboard.org/chat has a guide on how to ask questions and links to the logs | never ask to ask, just ask | be patient | pastebin a boot log | http://ahsoftware.de/Beaglebone_Black_Boot_explained.svg | http://beagleboard.org/latest-images | http://beagleboard.org/Support/bone101 | direct bonescript/node.js questions to #beagle-bonescript | books: http://bit.ly/bbb-books'
  • [00:00:31] * Set by KotH!~attila@erica.kinali.ch on Wed Jul 15 13:55:07 UTC 2015
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  • [02:41:45] <Guest97214> Hi all. New to the chat. I've got a BBB that won't boot. I used to have debian on it with a little server, but it's been sitting on my desk unpowered for over a year. The power LED comes on, but none of the user LEDs light up. I've tried booting from Flash, but no luck. Any recommendations?
  • [02:46:11] * Defiant (erik@x55b132be.dyn.telefonica.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  • [02:46:45] <Set_> Yea man...start from scratch.
  • [02:46:59] * ddrown (abob@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5654) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  • [02:48:05] <Set_> Get your new image and stick the SD card into the board and let it do its thing.
  • [02:48:22] <Guest97214> Ah, yeah, I tried that too, but no dice
  • [02:49:11] <Set_> Okay. Just wait. I am sure there will be other around soon.
  • [02:49:26] <Guest97214> Ok, thanks
  • [02:50:59] * carpman (~carpman@75-130-6-175.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  • [02:52:42] <Set_> I was thinking about it.
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  • [02:53:17] <Set_> Did you go the beagleboard.org and go to the Debian image site wiki?
  • [02:55:11] <Set_> I am asking because I have had this issue. I had to connect Ethernet, power over USB, and have the SD card in to allow for the board to shut down.
  • [02:55:48] <Set_> Once it shutdown, the image was final. I did not hold down the boot button either.
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  • [03:06:28] <areben> are the bbb gpio's supposed to spike briefly right after energizing the board?
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  • [03:09:25] <areben> I tested with two revA5C boards and it occurs even before u-boot outputs any text, so I doubt this is caused by software
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  • [03:11:24] <Guest97214> @Set_ I did go to the wiki through beagleboard.org and the imagine site.
  • [03:13:16] <Guest97214> But I did just find more information on the debian part of the wiki. I'll play with that and report back. Thanks
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  • [03:14:13] <Set_> No issue. Thank you for replying.
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  • [03:17:05] <Set_> Guest971: They have new images and there is a specific way to boot the board off SD card to make it run. You have to inset the SD card, turn the power on, add Ethernet, and let the board shutdown by itself to finalize the process.
  • [03:18:13] <Guest97214> Ok, good to know
  • [03:18:36] <Set_> Ya man...I will be here for a bit if you need additional support.
  • [03:19:33] <Set_> I had all sorts of configuration issues at first.
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  • [09:48:19] <julius> im looking at a inespensive camera to make it easier to drive backwards in a car. that thing saves data to a sd card, probably some microsoft media format. (the producer has not yet answered) is there a chance that a beagle board can read a ms format and reproduce it to a lcd with some resolution or is media conversion out of the question?
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  • [09:49:38] <uavcamm> i dont think you will find a cam that records windows formats
  • [09:50:11] <uavcamm> most likely you will have h264 in avi
  • [09:50:24] <tbr> you can probably play it back, yes
  • [09:50:36] <tbr> or mp4
  • [09:50:47] <julius> ok, i was just guessing at the format. avi would of course be nice
  • [09:51:25] <uavcamm> i have a bunch of cams here. those that can record do mp4 or avi
  • [09:51:34] <julius> if the camera got a lower resolution than the display, can i assume that it will work with black borders?
  • [09:51:56] <julius> ah yes, youre name sounds like you got some experience there
  • [09:52:10] <tbr> or it would be scaled
  • [09:52:18] <tbr> depends on the player software, really
  • [09:52:45] <julius> ah yes, of course
  • [09:53:34] <julius> uavcamm, any cameras you would recommend?
  • [09:53:44] <uavcamm> what do you want to pay?
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  • [09:54:25] <julius> i just need a little view of my behind, dont even need color
  • [09:54:25] <julius> so, inexpensive. would be nice
  • [09:54:52] <uavcamm> so connect via usb to the beagle?
  • [09:55:11] <julius> anything that works really, currently that would be the only application for the board
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  • [09:56:42] <uavcamm> have look at leopard
  • [09:57:38] <uavcamm> https://www.leopardimaging.com/
  • [09:58:02] <julius> yes got it
  • [09:58:09] <uavcamm> just to get an overview what is out there
  • [09:58:18] <julius> the low end vga camera is like 79$
  • [09:58:27] <julius> mine is from navgear, and is 29�
  • [09:58:33] <uavcamm> where are you located?
  • [09:58:36] <julius> germany
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  • [10:01:42] <uavcamm> see the private chat?
  • [10:01:54] <julius> oh sry, to many open windows...yes
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  • [11:46:44] <julius> would it be possible to attach something like this:http://www.ebay.de/itm/7-TFT-LCD-Display-Module-RGB-HDMI-VGA-2AV-Driver-Board-for-Raspberry-Pi-12V-CAR-/281561991510?hash=item418e670956:g:z0kAAOSw1ZBUtT3x to the beagle hdmi port?
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  • [12:04:35] <julius> according to this: http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_HDMI the beagle board does not support the resolution 1024x600. is that true?
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  • [12:44:25] <tomba> julius: it has a pixel clock limit, but if the mode is below that limit then it should work
  • [12:44:50] <tomba> possibly... I guess it also depends on the HDMI encoder used on bbb.
  • [12:45:17] <julius> any idea where i could ask that question besides here?
  • [12:45:24] <julius> the official 7" lcds are really expensive
  • [12:46:35] * mythos (~mythos@unaffiliated/mythos) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [12:47:01] <tomba> julius: umm so are you interested in the HDMI or an LCD?
  • [12:47:20] <tomba> the page you linked is for HDMI
  • [12:47:48] <julius> im interrested in a cheap 7" display
  • [12:48:01] <julius> that works with the beagle black
  • [12:48:15] <julius> touch
  • [12:48:32] <tomba> ok. well that page won't help you with an lcd
  • [12:49:01] <tomba> bbb supports 1024x600. but there are other aspects in whether the an lcd works or not.
  • [12:49:08] <julius> do you mean DVI instead of HDMI?
  • [12:49:27] <julius> ok, anything i can check?
  • [12:49:47] <tomba> umm ok, so you are talking about HDMI, then? a 7" HDMI monitor?
  • [12:50:14] <julius> it will go into my car, thats why the 7"
  • [12:50:21] <julius> i dont care if its connected via hdmi or dvi
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  • [12:50:41] <tomba> there's no DVI, just hdmi and parallel RGB.
  • [12:51:06] <julius> ah ok, my fault...maybe i saw that on a raspberrian
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  • [12:51:53] <tomba> of course, HDMI is more or less DVI + audio...
  • [12:53:04] <tbr> note that the ebay link you posted earlier was not a touch screen
  • [12:53:51] <ogra_> Can't touch that !
  • [12:53:58] <julius> :)
  • [12:54:01] <julius> youre right
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  • [13:11:32] <julius> what about this one: http://www.amazon.de/Touch-Screen-Monitor-Raspberry-Driver/dp/B00GZCUNQ8/ref=pd_sim_sbs_147_6?ie=UTF8&dpID=5128fatGXnL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0XTN338MK1KNPS3EQP5D
  • [13:11:59] <julius> it can do 800x480, which is not listed in the beagle wiki either
  • [13:17:05] <tbr> sounds like that would work
  • [13:20:26] <zmatt> lcdc can produce any resolution up to 2048x2048 provided the number of pixels per line is a multiple of 16
  • [13:21:12] <julius> ok
  • [13:21:53] <julius> so why are there only a few resolutions listed on http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_HDMI ?
  • [13:23:09] <zmatt> most likely because due to a driver bug, about 50% of all possible pixel clock rates led to misconfiguration of the LCDC pixel clock divider, which is fixed in the -ti kernels
  • [13:23:37] <zmatt> also, HDMI means the HDMI framer is involved which will have its own restrictions
  • [13:23:47] <zmatt> those I do not know
  • [13:23:50] <julius> ah ok
  • [13:24:15] <julius> lets see what the retailer support says, maybe they know. otherwise i will just test it
  • [13:24:24] <tbr> isn't it so, that hdmi only standardizes a few resolutions, while dvi and in general many more will just work
  • [13:25:35] <julius> the displays i found also got a vga connector, so they probalby are very useable with anything that does vga
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  • [13:26:37] <zmatt> which the bbb doesn't
  • [13:26:41] <julius> yes
  • [13:27:48] <zmatt> best viewed with a monospaced font that has good support for box drawing chars -> http://gerbil.xs4all.nl/lcdc-raster-timing.txt
  • [13:27:50] <julius> there are adapters for hdmi -> vga+audio. that could work
  • [13:28:12] <zmatt> that's insane though, inserting analog video into the chain
  • [13:28:23] <zmatt> when both source and destination are digital
  • [13:28:45] <zmatt> and both the processor's lcdc and the hdmi framer are highly flexible
  • [13:29:08] <julius> true
  • [13:29:55] <julius> may i ask why you guys use beagle instead of raspberrian? is that question allowed? im still new to this, dont own any of them
  • [13:30:19] <zmatt> instead of rpi you mean?
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  • [13:30:34] <julius> yes
  • [13:31:04] <zmatt> well, the rpi2 that is, since the rpi has an arm11 (armv6) processor so I'm not even going to take that one seriously
  • [13:32:22] <zmatt> I/O mostly. the BCM2835 (rpi) / 2836 (rpi2) processor is basically just a GPU with an arm core stuck on the side
  • [13:32:31] <uavcam> they fixed the light issue on the pi?
  • [13:32:51] <zmatt> while the BBB has powerful I/O capabilities
  • [13:33:19] <zmatt> and *real* ethernet (the bcm uses an usb-to-ethernet chip on the board since the processor has no ethernet support)
  • [13:33:29] <zmatt> and of course the awesome PRU
  • [13:35:01] <zmatt> graphics on the BBB are somewhat its weak point, especially since the GPU is often not usable (though if you do get it running it's not bad; but for example there's no support for it under X11)
  • [13:35:55] <zmatt> the processor on the BBB also has _much_ better documentation
  • [13:36:04] <zmatt> there's basically zero public docs from broadcom
  • [13:36:59] <zmatt> for the bcm2835/2836 there are two pdfs that summarize some info from the datasheet, and a community-maintained wiki of errata
  • [13:38:25] <zmatt> for the BBB you can just go to http://www.ti.com/product/am3358 and download the processor datasheet, errata, and technical reference manual right away, you don't even need to register on the site
  • [13:39:06] <zmatt> that makes a big difference if you want to do anything that isn't a prefab application
  • [13:39:56] * cultavix (~cultavix@unaffiliated/cultavix) Quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds)
  • [13:45:04] <Spidler_> Don't forget the crypto acceleration which actually has Linux drivers
  • [13:45:50] <Spidler_> Omap RNG support (modprobe omap-rng), and while you need to install rngd (rng-tools) to feed your system random with the hardware random, it works.
  • [13:45:59] <Spidler_> And makes some operations A _lot_ faster.
  • [13:45:59] * terinjokes (~terinjoke@wikinews/Terinjokes) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [13:46:14] <zmatt> so my summary would be: if you just want a small cheap ARM-based computer with decent graphics, an rpi2 should be fine. if you care less about the graphics but want to hook up a motor controller or some crazy shit, use a BBB
  • [13:46:55] * uavcam (~uav@14.215.167.182) Quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
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  • [13:46:56] <zmatt> Spidler_: the crypto drivers are very incomplete however, and when people did benchmarks they found that the overhead of using the driver often negated the performance benefit
  • [13:47:45] <Spidler_> For the crypto? Yeah. Random is a different thing
  • [13:47:48] <zmatt> otoh I accessed the AES accelerator myself from userspace using uio and it could process data faster than I could get it in/out from the cortex-a
  • [13:47:51] <zmatt> a8
  • [13:47:58] <Spidler_> I'm regularly running out of entropy
  • [13:48:19] <julius> zmatt, yes ive read about the open nature of bbb
  • [13:48:20] * GrumpeiYokoi (~chatzilla@75-150-234-17-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds)
  • [13:48:21] <zmatt> that makes no sense, if you have 128 bits of seed entropy that's fine for all purposes
  • [13:49:04] <Spidler_> zmatt: I boot from R/O disks. At the point where I want to start, all the boards have the same seed entropy.
  • [13:49:21] <Spidler_> Before network is up and they can set time properly. "Not a happy place"
  • [13:49:54] <zmatt> Spidler_: you can't give them slightly different images, with a different seed key?
  • [13:50:03] <Spidler_> And even after that there's a lot of TLS sessions going on that chew through.
  • [13:50:18] <Spidler_> Nope, not initially. After a while they'll have it, but initial state is blank
  • [13:50:31] <zmatt> you can't include a seed key in the RO image?
  • [13:50:45] <zmatt> and combine that with the factory-unique MAC address
  • [13:51:13] <Spidler_> Not really good enough to generate a private key with.
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  • [13:51:20] <julius> zmatt, but theres support for debian and gnome on the bbb, so they must have gotten xorg or something to run
  • [13:51:30] <zmatt> julius: xorg runs fine
  • [13:51:40] <zmatt> but without 3d graphics acceleration
  • [13:51:53] <julius> dont need that
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  • [13:52:23] <zmatt> or well, any kind of graphics acceleration at all... the framebuffer is just a piece of RAM
  • [13:53:00] <zmatt> Spidler_: as long as the seed key remains secret it is, but yeah if you don't want to rely on that you're very happy to have a hw rng
  • [13:53:29] <Spidler_> zmatt: Mmm. Also, setting up/rekeying on a lot of TLS sessions eats a fair bit of entropy.
  • [13:53:35] <zmatt> no
  • [13:53:51] <julius> i want to use it as a car pc, for a usb camera that shows whats behind me, and mp3 music
  • [13:53:54] <zmatt> once the RNG is seeded with > 128 bits of entropy, as long as your system isn't compromised that's fine
  • [13:54:40] <zmatt> it means it would take 2^128 to crack all keys at once instead of 2^128 effort per key, but both are impossible so that's an irrelevant issue
  • [13:54:58] <zmatt> a real attacker will just exploit some software vulnerability
  • [13:54:58] <Spidler_> zmatt: Eh, no? urandom won't be blocking as it's cycling with the reseed, but openssl is still effing stupid and uses it's own rng implementation, polling directly off /dev/random
  • [13:55:31] <zmatt> Spidler_: so fix that
  • [13:55:43] <Spidler_> CBA. Migrating to NSS where I can.
  • [13:55:56] <Spidler_> Sadly, NSS is retarded in different ways.
  • [13:56:05] <zmatt> replace /dev/random by a hardlink to /dev/urandom
  • [13:56:06] <Spidler_> "Oh, this is a filename, except if you use NSS then it's a handle"
  • [13:56:07] <zmatt> problem solved
  • [13:56:20] <Spidler_> Nah, that's "problem hacked around" :P
  • [13:56:23] <zmatt> no, solved
  • [13:56:39] <zmatt> /dev/random has no legitimate reason to exist if you have a HW RNG
  • [13:56:44] * micges (~micges@dbu14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds)
  • [13:57:16] <zmatt> julius: in other words, just a small PC
  • [13:57:17] <Spidler_> unless you use a rng feeder, _having_ a hwrng isn't enough either.
  • [13:57:44] <zmatt> julius: an rpi might actually be a better choice but dunno, haven't actually used one yet
  • [13:57:47] * kiwichris (~kiwichris@CPE-60-225-146-35.hhui6.ken.bigpond.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  • [13:57:56] <Spidler_> Unless policy hs changed, simply loading the hwrng suppport wasn't enough to make it feed into the system entropy pool.
  • [13:58:05] * baoboa (~baoboa@gw-ics.u-strasbg.fr) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  • [13:58:18] <zmatt> Spidler_: I haven't looked at it either, maybe some stuff needs to be fixed in the kernel
  • [13:58:37] <zmatt> but really, once the initial entropy is available, /dev/random ought to behave like /dev/urandom
  • [13:58:54] <zmatt> and with a hwrng initial entropy can be available in the blink of an eye
  • [13:59:04] <Spidler_> Sadly, not. For backwards compat reasons, they didn't change behaviour of /dev/random
  • [13:59:16] <Spidler_> Personally I think /dev/random should go the way of the dodo.
  • [13:59:25] <zmatt> then they're moron, replace /dev/random with a hardlink to /dev/urandom
  • [13:59:52] <zmatt> or recompile anything that uses /dev/random to use /dev/urandom instead
  • [14:00:58] <zmatt> but the link is easier, you can probably make an udev rule that assigns a different name to /dev/random and adds 'random' as an alias to /dev/urandom
  • [14:01:25] <zmatt> the kernel side also needs some inspection though
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  • [14:02:21] <zmatt> since the rng needs to be setup with proper parameters to actually yield true random data, and I don't trust the values in the kernel driver have been selected properly
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  • [14:03:08] <zmatt> can be worked around by not assuming the bits are perfectly random but just grabbing a large block of data from the hwrng for initial seeding of the entropy pool
  • [14:03:19] <Spidler_> Also sounds probably true
  • [14:03:27] <derjanni> Hello everybody! Can I plug a 7.2v 4600mAh NiMH battery into the beagles battery pins?
  • [14:03:41] <Spidler_> I don't think the kernel even supports "replace" mode for rng pool, used to only support "mixin" mode, which is just that
  • [14:03:51] <zmatt> Spidler_: https://e2e.ti.com/support/arm/sitara_arm/f/791/t/355064#pi316653=2
  • [14:03:56] <zmatt> you should always mix in anyway
  • [14:04:50] <julius> zmatt, thx for the info
  • [14:05:03] <zmatt> for managing the entropy pool the state of the art used to be Schneier's "Fortuna", until this paper: http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/167
  • [14:05:42] <julius> theres also a rpi zero for 15� at my usual retailer, so its a lot cheaper than a bbb
  • [14:05:51] <zmatt> (managing the entropy pool includes the bootstrap problem)
  • [14:05:57] <Spidler_> Hmmm. Yea.
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  • [14:06:49] <zmatt> julius: keep in mind that (unlike the rpi2) the rpi/rpiz use an arm11 processor, which really sucks
  • [14:07:01] <zmatt> it means you can't run armv7 executables
  • [14:07:11] <zmatt> so the rpi people had to recompile _everything_
  • [14:07:20] <Spidler_> armv6 only. It's a good cpu for what it is, but it's not a modern platform
  • [14:07:30] <Spidler_> ( not that Armv7 is modern in that sense either )
  • [14:07:42] <zmatt> armv7 is a fine architecture
  • [14:07:52] <julius> yeah, the price has to come from somwhere
  • [14:08:31] <zmatt> the armv6 variant of the arm11 is okayish, but it's almost never supported... if you look at distros you often find it's either armv5 without FPU support, or armv7 with FPU support, and nothing inbetween
  • [14:09:15] <stt_michael> zmatt, remind me .. why was it you have to use the sys/ direction file instead of 'value' ..
  • [14:09:37] <stt_michael> I checked the kernel docs this morning .. they seem not to reflect reality .. as usual ..
  • [14:09:57] <zmatt> stt_michael: to switch an IO from input to output-high
  • [14:09:59] <Spidler_> Also don't forget that since the Raspian folks choose to re-use the "armhf" tag, people get loooovely and confusing incompabilities when they mix Debian and Raspbian packages
  • [14:10:08] <zmatt> Spidler_: ah yes
  • [14:10:22] <stt_michael> zmatt, *just* to switch mode ..
  • [14:10:34] <Spidler_> that decision along has cost them sooo many hours of support :)
  • [14:10:49] <zmatt> stt_michael: the problem is you can't set the output value before switching to output mode
  • [14:11:04] <stt_michael> zmatt,.. no I see that ..
  • [14:11:18] * elopio (~quassel@33.93.189.91.lcy-02.canonistack.canonical.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds)
  • [14:11:22] <zmatt> stt_michael: except you can, by the poorly documented procedure of writing 'high'/'low' to direction
  • [14:11:29] <stt_michael> right
  • [14:11:30] * ChanServ sets mode -o LetoThe2nd
  • [14:11:35] <zmatt> 'out' is equivalent to 'low'
  • [14:11:43] <stt_michael> and high.. yes.
  • [14:11:56] <julius> so they shoot themselves in the foot?
  • [14:11:57] <zmatt> Spidler_: you could also blame debian for making 'armhf' implicitly armv7
  • [14:12:14] <ogra_> that was ARM
  • [14:12:17] <ogra_> not debian
  • [14:12:23] <zmatt> ogra_: uhh, what?
  • [14:12:36] <zmatt> ogra_: 'armhf' is a debian designator, not an ARM one
  • [14:12:49] <Spidler_> zmatt: Yea, that too.
  • [14:12:50] <ogra_> they asked for the build options
  • [14:13:20] <zmatt> it depends then on what exactly the question was they asked ARM
  • [14:13:27] * ogra_ was involved in these discussions ... using v6 limits the v7 instructions set
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  • [14:14:09] <zmatt> ARMv7 is a logical target since the arm11 processors are quite obscure and uncommonly used in any mainstream processor
  • [14:14:32] <zmatt> even now on the mixed multi-core SoCs you find v7-a, v7-m, and v5
  • [14:14:34] <zmatt> not v6
  • [14:14:38] <ogra_> right, butu beyond being logical you wouldnt get all the shiny v7 features
  • [14:14:58] <ogra_> (not at 100% at least)
  • [14:15:06] <zmatt> v6 didn't have thumb2 yet
  • [14:15:15] <ogra_> right
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  • [14:15:31] <zmatt> well, there was a v6t2 but that's not used in the arm1176 in the rpi
  • [14:15:40] <ogra_> anyway, the initiative to pick v7 came initially from ARM
  • [14:15:54] <ogra_> when the port was started
  • [14:16:00] <zmatt> basically you have two branches of extensions of v6
  • [14:16:07] <zmatt> and v7 is the merge of them
  • [14:17:15] <zmatt> only with lpae/ve did v7 really begin to change (but mostly from a kernel pov, userspace usually doesn't care)
  • [14:17:44] <zmatt> I think as far as the application-level ISA goes, thumb2 is the biggest difference
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  • [14:18:23] <zmatt> and it *is* a big difference; thanks tot that, compilation to thumb is now usually even the default
  • [14:18:49] <zmatt> anyhow, back to topic
  • [14:19:12] <zmatt> if we had oen
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  • [14:25:14] <zmatt> ogra_: the big problem is that debian has no way of indicating the detailed "compiled for / tuned for" of packages... that would really be useful
  • [14:25:26] <zmatt> and then have short abbreviations like "armhf" for the most common architectures
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  • [14:29:36] <zmatt> Spidler_: I still don't really understand why you can't store a random seed key per device... do you have no non-volatile rw storage at all ?
  • [14:31:55] * elopio (~quassel@91.189.93.33) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  • [14:32:01] <Spidler_> zmatt: we had the traditional "not enough entropy at first boot when generating private keys" problem.
  • [14:32:42] <Spidler_> zmatt: Future boots are all fine and we have a seed then. Just that once they are freshly flashed.
  • [14:33:11] <Spidler_> simply feeding the entropy pool with a bit from the hwrng at that point fixes it.
  • [14:34:37] <zmatt> Spidler_: hmm, I'd also include a seed for the rng at device programming time, just in case the hwrng isn't trustworthy
  • [14:34:47] <zmatt> it should be an easy enough problem to fix even without the hwrng
  • [14:35:24] <Spidler_> The problem is that if you do that, ( seed at programming time) all devices get the same seed => boomp.
  • [14:36:48] <zmatt> combine with MAC address, problem solved
  • [14:36:50] * bostondriver (~mcambria@68.128.155.223) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [14:37:06] <zmatt> be sure to overwrite the seed file immediately since it'll have become an "rng init key"
  • [14:37:57] <zmatt> or, make the programming procedure a bit less dumb than 'dd'
  • [14:38:33] <Spidler_> Yea.
  • [14:38:51] <Spidler_> tftp next I guess :)
  • [14:39:10] <zmatt> you need three ingredients to initialize an rng: secret (>= 128 bits of entropy) and fresh
  • [14:39:35] <zmatt> "fresh" being any value that's different whenever the secret is reused (across different points in time or across different devices)
  • [14:39:43] <zmatt> sorry, two ingredients
  • [14:40:00] <zmatt> (was originally going to split into "device-unique" and "fresh per boot")
  • [14:40:07] * Guest6370 (~mp@aggr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [14:40:31] <Spidler_> I'm well aware, the problem as said is that there's only shared state. No network, no timekeeping, nothing that separates the devices except for maybe serial numbers, mac address and so on.
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  • [14:42:46] <julius> so many factors to consider, does the bbb output x264 without killing its cpu?
  • [14:43:23] * nighty^ (~nighty@KD119104077247.au-net.ne.jp) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [14:43:31] <zmatt> hence you have all ingredients: secret (pre-programmed) + device-unique (mac address) + boot unique (you can use current datetime, assuming the mechanism works that uses the fs metadata to ensure in absence of rtc the clock is at least monotone across boots)
  • [14:44:12] <zmatt> Spidler_: though I recommend overwriting the secret with a fresh seed value of course, no need to have a long-term secret shared by many devices
  • [14:44:18] * dys (~dys@ip-109-44-247-25.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  • [14:44:21] <Spidler_> indeed.
  • [14:44:34] <zmatt> but in principle it suffices
  • [14:44:57] <zmatt> there are even military-grade RNGs that basically just encrypt a counter
  • [14:45:21] <Spidler_> An AES stream can be provably enough random.
  • [14:45:30] <zmatt> not provably actually, conjecturally
  • [14:45:33] <Spidler_> Basically how chacha works as an RNG
  • [14:45:59] <zmatt> more importantly, it's much easier to verify correct implementation and functioning than a "true RNG"
  • [14:46:27] <Spidler_> I should just pay a troll to say "nine nine nine" all the time.
  • [14:46:29] <zmatt> a hwrng can be really badly broken without noticing
  • [14:47:03] <Spidler_> Also true. And very hard to discover aftwards.
  • [14:48:15] <zmatt> well, the rng on the aes does have an internal monitoring/alarm mechanism, and there are test modes in which you can inspect the raw datastream of each of the 24 internal entropy sources (FROs)
  • [14:48:25] <zmatt> see my e2e post
  • [14:48:33] <Spidler_> Yeah, saw that one. Good reading
  • [14:50:22] <Spidler_> Basically, my current tooling will read 64 bytes from /dev/hwrng and mix it into the current kernel pool ( writing to /dev/urandom )
  • [14:50:23] <zmatt> would be nice to get a long contiguous trace (at max sample rate) of each FRO instead of separate 64-bit chunks, and then run some analysis on them
  • [14:50:47] <zmatt> I'd grab a lot more than 64 bytes
  • [14:51:37] <Spidler_> Probably a good idea to grab 512 bytes
  • [14:52:00] <zmatt> 64 bytes means you need at least 0.25 bit of entropy per bit of output
  • [14:52:05] <Spidler_> since the pool is "full" at 4096 bits
  • [14:52:24] <Spidler_> Hmm, point.
  • [14:52:30] <zmatt> and the hwrng delivers data *fast*
  • [14:52:48] <zmatt> like, unless the driver is badly written, reading from /dev/hwrng is probably faster than reading from eMMC
  • [14:53:16] <zmatt> (i.e. using a seed file to initialize the RNG is slower than using the hwrng)
  • [14:53:49] <zmatt> depends on the config vars of the rng though... checking kernel sources to see what they are currently
  • [14:53:57] <Spidler_> mmm. right
  • [14:54:19] <Spidler_> I should just use getrandom() and be happy.
  • [14:54:32] <zmatt> that's just /dev/urandom :P
  • [14:54:59] <Spidler_> ./dev/urandom uninitialized still doesn't block
  • [14:55:35] <zmatt> yeah that's kind of a misfeature. same goes for the getrandom() syscall persumably?
  • [14:55:50] <Spidler_> Nope
  • [14:55:58] <Spidler_> that blocks until there is random pool available
  • [14:56:50] <zmatt> but doesn't require "fresh" entropy? in other words, it behaves saner than both /dev/random and /dev/urandom ?
  • [14:56:58] <Spidler_> Yeah, it does
  • [14:57:19] <Spidler_> Basically, if the system _is_ initialized (has entropy) it behaves the same as urandom/random
  • [14:57:36] <Spidler_> if it's _not_ initialized ( no entropy gathered) it blocks (by default)
  • [14:58:01] <zmatt> /dev/random doesn't block after system initialization? I thought that was its problem, but maybe my info on that is outdated, haven't looked into it in a looong time
  • [14:58:04] <Spidler_> The alternative to blocking, is to return -1 and errno=EAGAIN
  • [14:58:22] <Spidler_> dev/random blocks after initialization, it always depletes the entropy pool
  • [14:58:35] <zmatt> and the getrandom() syscall?
  • [14:58:39] <Spidler_> dev/urandom mixes the entropy pool into some rounds of (md4 afaik)
  • [14:58:54] <Spidler_> getrandom either blocks until you have data in the pool, or returns EAGAIN
  • [14:59:07] <zmatt> ah wait, it has a flag for it actually
  • [14:59:09] <zmatt> http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/getrandom.2.html
  • [14:59:13] <Spidler_> ( based on if you set the NOBLOCK flag )
  • [15:00:00] <Spidler_> man 4 random is weird.
  • [15:00:09] <zmatt> not random, getrandom
  • [15:00:17] <Spidler_> turns out that simply writing data to /dev/urandom isn't enough to increase the entropy count
  • [15:00:29] <zmatt> oh you're talking about something else
  • [15:00:30] <Spidler_> It'll mix it in, but it won't count it towards entropy
  • [15:00:35] <zmatt> duh
  • [15:00:49] <zmatt> at least increasing entropy estimate should be privileged
  • [15:00:51] <Spidler_> but if you use the ioctl you can get it to do so.
  • [15:00:59] <zmatt> but really, anything relying on entropy estimation is Broken By Design
  • [15:01:33] <Spidler_> I'm really wondering why you can even write to /dev/urandom as a non-privileged user
  • [15:01:46] <zmatt> so anyone can contribute randomness
  • [15:01:49] <zmatt> it doesn't do any harm
  • [15:03:43] <Spidler_> yeah, I'm just never quite ready to grasp that :)
  • [15:10:14] <zmatt> ok, min-refill is 33*64 cycles = 21.12 μs
  • [15:10:56] <zmatt> that's an max output rate if about 370 KB/s
  • [15:10:59] <zmatt> *of
  • [15:11:21] <Spidler_> For my needs, shouldn't be too bad
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  • [15:12:47] <zmatt> note that the FROs don't magically produce more entropy if you configure a higher output rate... you just get lower-quality output
  • [15:14:28] <zmatt> otoh if you're mixing it into an entropy pool anyway, better to use a high data rate and collect it in the software entropy (large pool, cryptographic hash function) than using the pool built into the hwrng (81-bit linear feedback shift register)
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  • [15:25:51] <zmatt> the annoying part is that the *correct* parameters to use will be hardware-dependent... presumably the module included docs for the implementor on how to test and calibrate the implementation and determine the correct values, but that doesn't help us much
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  • [22:49:56] <Kristian_> hello, I am setting up my bbb for the first time. I have checked the guide. ifconfig works otherwise but the line under eth0 between "link" and inet6" is missing. How can I determine my IP?
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