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  • [00:00:35] * Topic is 'http://beagleboard.org/chat has a guide on how to ask questions and links to the logs | never ask to ask, just ask | be patient | pastebin a boot log | http://ahsoftware.de/Beaglebone_Black_Boot_explained.svg | http://beagleboard.org/latest-images | http://beagleboard.org/Support/bone101 | direct bonescript/node.js questions to #beagle-bonescript | books: http://bit.ly/bbb-books'
  • [00:00:35] * Set by KotH!~attila@erica.kinali.ch on Wed Jul 15 13:55:07 UTC 2015
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  • [00:06:50] <GenTooMan> is the image being loaded good or is the memory being used toast? you using the eMMC?
  • [00:09:40] <GenTooMan> I probably should have bought the xm instead of the panda's sigh.
  • [00:14:21] <zmatt> well the block device driver started dropping data in the middle of a system update which included essential shared libs like libgcc and libc and other essential packages
  • [00:15:39] <zmatt> I got the eMMC mounted over USB now so I'm going to try to manually get it into working state again
  • [00:16:40] <zmatt> libc being clobbered is slightly inconvenient since that means I also can't chroot into it to reinstall the packages that were part of this update (which should hopefully fix the system)
  • [00:17:47] <GenTooMan> it would be nice if one could boot from ramdisk and temporarily operate from that...
  • [00:17:55] <veremit> ah I had an inkling the panda was freescale .. but its not .. yeah
  • [00:18:08] <veremit> GenTooMan ..uboot does :p
  • [00:18:14] <veremit> sorta
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  • [00:18:57] <veremit> zmatt might be able to suggest the baremetal interface :P
  • [00:18:58] <zmatt> GenTooMan: I'd run into the same problem: you can't chroot into the rootfs and use dpkg there
  • [00:19:07] <zmatt> I mean, filesystem access I already have
  • [00:19:33] <veremit> zmatt .. has it got important data, or can you scrub it?
  • [00:20:28] <veremit> if its a key system, yiou must be able to reproduce it... no?
  • [00:20:28] <zmatt> veremit: although I've already offloaded the most important data, I still prefer to give recovery 1 shot before I resort to resetting the system
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  • [00:21:23] <veremit> fair enough .. sometimes its just not worth the effort, but I'm sure you're aware .. and you do put in more than the average effort ;)
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  • [00:21:48] <zmatt> well, that's the point, this was the master copy. normally we regularly rsync this (minus "device identity" files and temporary shit) to a whole farm of devices, but unfortunately for $reasons this hadn't been done in a while
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  • [00:22:06] <veremit> ahhhhh... yeah, know that story...
  • [00:22:15] <zmatt> the system update was actually done exactly because we were about to rsync them again (to avoid having to rsync *again* after the update)
  • [00:22:37] <veremit> oops!
  • [00:23:14] <veremit> will this .. event .. skew the $reasons going forward?! :)
  • [00:23:29] <zmatt> ?
  • [00:24:13] <veremit> thinking the playing out of the 'false economy' argument...
  • [00:24:39] <zmatt> also, I haven't actually put much time into recovery yet, mostly been chatting and being randomly distracted
  • [00:24:47] <veremit> lol ok
  • [00:25:21] <zmatt> and waiting for dd to finish making a backup copy of the fs just in case fsck would only make things worse
  • [00:25:33] <veremit> *nod* ofc.
  • [00:27:58] <zmatt> and browsing kernel source to see who is the person deserving a kick in the nuts for this :P
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  • [00:28:50] <zmatt> the one using /* FIXME */ as an error-handling strategy is definitely high on the list, although I think the core issue is actually in the edma driver
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  • [00:38:42] <GenTooMan> ARM dma should be simple but I have no idea what TI did to the DMA THIS time. Sometimes they do it right sometimes it's totally borked and they hide it.
  • [00:38:58] <zmatt> "ARM dma" ?
  • [00:39:34] <zmatt> I have no idea what that might be referring to, but there are no DMA engine(s) designed by ARM on this chip
  • [00:39:52] <zmatt> I'm talking about EDMA
  • [00:40:16] <GenTooMan> That would mean the dinstinct possibility it could be a bit interesting to use.
  • [00:40:43] <GenTooMan> distinct even. maybe I should change to Typoman. instead.
  • [00:40:59] <zmatt> it is interesting to use, but it's a pretty decent DMA engine
  • [00:41:09] <zmatt> as usual, the problem is more with the driver than the hardware
  • [00:41:26] <zmatt> (usb being a possible exception of that rule)
  • [00:41:48] <GenTooMan> Well USB is the one bus to rule them all! :D
  • [00:42:47] <GenTooMan> I've found TI's description for how to program DMA on their parts often highly obfuscated.
  • [00:42:48] <zmatt> the Universal Shitty Bus
  • [00:43:19] <zmatt> oh yeah, EDMA documentation is crap. when I made my own header file for it, I renamed pretty much every concept and register to something sensible in the process
  • [00:45:03] <GenTooMan> It's sad because half the value of a component is documentation on how to use it.
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  • [00:46:58] <zmatt> my biggest complaints with EDMA are some icky irregulatities in the event-related registers (like you can't manually clear a manually set event) and the fact it special-cased length zero transfers in a really weird and inconsistent way
  • [00:48:30] <zmatt> and I don't like that they bypass the event queue when it is empty.. going through the queue anyway would have been useful for debugging (since you'd have some overview of recent dma events)
  • [00:48:37] <veremit> usb works .. mostly .. stop whining :p
  • [00:48:46] <veremit> except TI's shitty implementation
  • [00:48:53] <veremit> holy fark what a rip-off
  • [00:49:18] <zmatt> well the core isn't TI's
  • [00:49:27] <veremit> no .. I'll let that slide ..
  • [00:51:09] <zmatt> it's interesting that the dma is buggy also, that part was copy/pasted from their Keystone processors
  • [00:51:42] <zmatt> although there are subtle differences, so possibly they copy/pasted an early dev version or something, or made random changes
  • [00:52:28] <veremit> shoe-horned it in I would imagine
  • [00:52:42] <zmatt> although I wonder here too how much is actually driver bugginess... officially nearly all usb-related errata have been fixed in the current hardware revision
  • [00:53:31] <zmatt> it's easy enough to fuck up a driver for such a beast though
  • [00:54:08] <veremit> should be a matter of time if the hardware is 90% working and documented appropriately ....
  • [00:54:23] <zmatt> and someone who both cares and understands is working on it
  • [00:54:47] <zmatt> the TI parts of usbss are publicly documented
  • [00:55:54] <zmatt> including the heaps of incredibly obscure low-level knobs / testing registers of the usb phy
  • [00:56:45] <zmatt> (which is always a bad sign, since it means they anticipate a need to twiddle those after production to fix issues)
  • [01:03:20] <veremit> you wouldn't have thought those got documented ..
  • [01:03:30] <veremit> but then .. I've never designed silicon nor written drivers ..
  • [01:04:07] <zmatt> DFT registers usually aren't... in fact, often they aren't even accessible though the normal register interface
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  • [01:04:28] <zmatt> the SoC has a whole undocumented subsystem dedicated to DFT (Device Functional Testing)
  • [01:05:09] <zmatt> that's why it's worrying that they are exposed in this case...
  • [01:06:06] <zmatt> runtime tuning knobs of hardware stuff that normally has only one sensible setting are usually included in case hardware bugs show up that might be worked around using those knobs
  • [01:07:01] <zmatt> hence my expectation is that the amount of such knobs present is inversely proportional to the confidence the designers have it'll work right :P
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  • [01:07:26] <veremit> lol hmm
  • [01:07:34] <zmatt> of course I may just be a bit cynical here
  • [01:07:35] <veremit> I second your thinking ..
  • [01:09:01] <zmatt> but, like... "Disable the VBUS debouncer circuit fix" ... why on earth would I want a bit to disable the "VBUS debouncer circuit fix" ?!
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  • [01:10:38] <veremit> lol
  • [01:10:53] <ds2> maybe it breaks OTG
  • [01:11:15] <veremit> how??!?
  • [01:11:27] <zmatt> well they also have an OTG Session Request Protocol (SRP) AVALID circuit fix
  • [01:11:31] <zmatt> along with a bit to disable it
  • [01:13:35] <zmatt> but the really fun stuff is still in the usb phy... you should browse them (TRM section 16.5.4)
  • [01:14:05] <ds2> that is seperate from HNP which requires funny VBUS business
  • [01:14:59] <zmatt> that vaguely rings a bell... which means I haven't managed to adequately suppress my memories from having read that stuff
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  • [01:21:39] <ds2> it uses a pulsing VBUS to signal things
  • [01:22:31] <zmatt> the charger protocol is also really nice :P
  • [01:23:13] <GenTooMan> you know pulsing buses ... just sounds odd?
  • [01:23:44] <zmatt> it's not a bus, it's the power supply accompanying the bus
  • [01:23:52] <zmatt> (now pulsing it makes much more sense, right?)
  • [01:24:28] <ds2> he he he
  • [01:24:31] <GenTooMan> the more complicated you make a design ... the more likely to fail.
  • [01:24:53] <ds2> how else do you decide who's host when you ahve 2 of them plugged in?
  • [01:25:03] <zmatt> ID pin
  • [01:26:16] <ds2> how would that work if they are BOTH hosts?
  • [01:26:37] <zmatt> the cable has a micro-A end and a micro-B end
  • [01:26:47] <ds2> ID = GND for host
  • [01:26:55] <ds2> so grounding ID still doesn't resolve who's who
  • [01:27:09] <zmatt> reminder the ID pin exists in the socket only, it's not a wire in the cable
  • [01:27:21] <zmatt> if you use a micro-A to micro-B cable, one end's ID pin will be grounded, the other end not
  • [01:28:52] <veremit> yes otg is meant to be handled by the ID pin
  • [01:28:58] <zmatt> HNP was just invented to save the user from having the swap the cable around
  • [01:29:35] <veremit> usb3.5 or 4 or whichever is symmetrical
  • [01:29:42] <veremit> or however you want to call it
  • [01:29:51] <veremit> upside down and back to front :p
  • [01:30:28] <zmatt> it's not, since it still requires usb 2 compatibility
  • [01:33:33] <veremit> ah well there is that
  • [01:33:45] <veremit> but it doesn't matter which way you plug it in ;p
  • [01:33:58] <veremit> I wouldn't want to design that kinda interface :/
  • [01:34:01] <ds2> do they make microA to microB cables?
  • [01:36:31] <zmatt> I would assume so, it's the only way to connect OTG devices together
  • [01:36:43] <zmatt> (and without it HNP would be utterly pointless)
  • [01:38:33] <zmatt> in fact, it is the only standards-compliant cable with a micro-A connector according to the "usb cables matrix" on wikipedia
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  • [01:52:50] <ds2> in practice, have you seen micro A's in products?
  • [01:56:04] <zmatt> in practice, I have never used otg
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  • [01:58:08] <zmatt> lol, I guess the market had a difference of opinion with the USB consortium here
  • [01:58:16] <zmatt> but then HNP is _completely_ useless
  • [01:59:08] <ds2> except all Beagle USB ports (except for the full size A ones) are OTG
  • [01:59:54] <ds2> do the right magic and things happen
  • [02:00:39] <zmatt> actually both ports of the BBB are OTG-capable but neither is configured as such by software iirc
  • [02:02:01] <zmatt> in both cases you may run into vbus problems and may need some ugly hack
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  • [02:31:52] <veremit> yeah I've seen a hack around to make th otg port into ahost
  • [02:32:00] <veremit> but thats nasty using mini-B as your 'host' lol
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  • [03:53:18] <turbo-joe> is there a way to move some of the files onto a usb drive, and leave room on the eMMC for a swap and the important boot files and such?
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  • [03:54:21] <turbo-joe> like move the /bin to the usb drive or sd card
  • [03:55:04] <zmatt> your example isn't a very good one, given that /bin contains rather essential executables :P
  • [03:55:42] <zmatt> and the answer is yes, you can, but it does need to be done carefully
  • [03:55:45] <turbo-joe> I am just shooting out an idea, I am not very savvy with linux but I am working on it.
  • [03:56:06] <zmatt> well step 1 would be to find out what is actually taking up all that space
  • [03:57:52] <turbo-joe> even if I just put the image on the 4gb eMMC and made a 1gb swap it would leave me with less then 500mb or so
  • [03:58:10] <zmatt> swap?
  • [03:58:11] <zmatt> o.O
  • [03:58:32] <zmatt> there are people who actually enable swap on an eMMC ? poor thing
  • [03:59:09] <turbo-joe> I want to use the emmc because of the speed. but I need the space for programs and just normal figuring out how everything works.
  • [03:59:23] <zmatt> if you insist on enabling swap, put *that* on an external card
  • [04:00:15] <zmatt> and I don't know why the standard image has so much crap on it either... I normally always start with a minimal console image and then install the packages I need
  • [04:00:17] <turbo-joe> I was just hoping the swap would help with the speed. I know they do it on ubuntu
  • [04:00:38] <zmatt> no, swap does not increase speed of anything on any system
  • [04:00:42] <turbo-joe> the problem is that I am just learning what I need now.
  • [04:01:00] <zmatt> and it sure as hell won't if you put swap on eMMC
  • [04:01:27] <turbo-joe> isn't a swap similar to a page file on windows for ram to unload?
  • [04:01:28] <zmatt> ok I should qualify my previous statement.. I guess swap *can* speed up a system under some circumstances
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  • [04:01:59] <zmatt> by swapping out stuff that is idly taking up ram it can use more ram as disk cache
  • [04:02:20] <turbo-joe> right
  • [04:02:33] <turbo-joe> thats what I'm after lol I'm sry
  • [04:02:37] <zmatt> but eMMC is fast for reading and horribly slow for writing
  • [04:03:17] <turbo-joe> but I thought the eMMC was 2x or even father then the sd card or a flash drive
  • [04:03:31] <turbo-joe> faster*
  • [04:03:44] <zmatt> well, in theory it is, but that's the bus interface speed
  • [04:03:51] <zmatt> maybe you can max it out with reads
  • [04:03:54] <zmatt> definitely not with writes
  • [04:04:13] <zmatt> also, writes will wear out flash
  • [04:04:28] <zmatt> if you wear out a card or stick, you can replace it
  • [04:05:00] <turbo-joe> yeah but ill probably accidentally cook this on accident long before it would burn out the emmc
  • [04:05:17] <zmatt> still, enabling swap on eMMC is a bad idea
  • [04:05:33] <zmatt> I expect that enabling swap will be a net performance loss anyhow
  • [04:05:52] <zmatt> but I haven't tested it, so who knows
  • [04:06:04] <turbo-joe> how much faster is the emac vs the sd card? i see a lot of the new images are for sd cards
  • [04:06:29] <zmatt> I think rcn-ee always releases images for both?
  • [04:07:04] <zmatt> the bus interface is twice as fast (due to being 8-bit for eMMC vs 4-bit for SD)
  • [04:07:06] <zmatt> but
  • [04:07:12] <turbo-joe> could be, I may not have noticed it in the past. I put the BBB down for a couple years.
  • [04:07:17] <zmatt> actual speeds will depend on the flash chip spec
  • [04:08:05] <zmatt> on the BBB two different eMMC chips are used, kingston and micron, and they have quite different performance specs
  • [04:08:44] <zmatt> external μSD same story... especially write performance will vary a lot depending on the card you use
  • [04:08:45] <turbo-joe> I have kingston
  • [04:09:03] <zmatt> then you are lucky to have the fast eMMC
  • [04:11:10] <turbo-joe> I am just not sure of the proper way to approach the issue. I refresh my card sometimes a few times a day because just playing and trying new things will load up the eMMC
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  • [04:11:24] <turbo-joe> reflash*
  • [04:11:57] <zmatt> ?!
  • [04:12:11] <zmatt> then figure out what's taking up all that space
  • [04:12:34] <turbo-joe> I am not at the point where I know what I need, so just trying different things to learn kind of kill me.
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  • [04:15:40] <turbo-joe> I don't know linux very well, and I am learning to program to board also. so I know I am asking a lot of the board but I believe I will learn much more then on the raspberry pi.
  • [04:18:05] <zmatt> I'm trying to find a number of what the expected max number of writes per block is of flash nowadays, but can't immediately find it
  • [04:18:23] <zmatt> reflashing the whole eMMC multiple times per day is definitely not a good idea :P
  • [04:18:46] <ds2> build a custom distro using yocto
  • [04:19:07] <zmatt> ds2: yeah that's definitely the easy road here for a linux newbie
  • [04:19:10] <zmatt> :P
  • [04:19:14] <ds2> it is
  • [04:19:18] <ds2> you don't know to know Linux
  • [04:19:28] <ds2> download, edit file,bitbake,done.
  • [04:22:09] <turbo-joe> I just want to learn both linux/programming better/some electronics with this. I know it is not going to last forever but before I cook it they will probably have something new and better out.
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  • [04:22:53] <turbo-joe> I am learning a lot already, I just want to try to smooth it out and make it a bit easier on me.
  • [04:25:59] <turbo-joe> I got pretty far with the arduino, I just feel like this is a good next step.
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  • [04:46:19] <turbo-joe> do you think a usb flash drive or the sd card would be better to try this little swap experiment?
  • [04:47:47] <turbo-joe> I have a good sd card. so so usb sticks but I remember issues with the usb bus was adding a lot to the cpu on the raspberry pi
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  • [07:03:58] <Hiren> help
  • [07:04:04] * kiwichris (~kiwichris@1.144.96.131) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  • [07:04:09] <Hiren> my self hiren
  • [07:04:35] <Hiren> at that time i am working on beagle borad blck
  • [07:04:59] <Hiren> how to battery status in beagle board black???
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  • [07:24:50] <tbr> Hiren: the BBB doesn't have a battery by default
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  • [09:45:23] <zmatt> (and the PMIC has no battery charge tracking)
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  • [17:21:33] <funkster> i am trying to send "<ID00>TEST<E>" to my /dev/ttyUSB0 device, using $cat > /dev/ttyUSB0 and pasting message works, but when i do echo -n "<ID00>TEST<E>" > /dev/ttyUSB0 it doesn't... something is different cause my USB device doesn't perform task with echo command, but does with cat command. Anyone have an idea?
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  • [17:29:53] <veremit> the redirection is the same ikn both cases .. suggest you look at the echo command
  • [17:30:31] <veremit> you''ll probably find you have some issues with shell substitutions
  • [17:30:45] <veremit> or interpretations, probably more accurately :)
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  • [21:17:16] <GenTooMan> with computers everything is subject to interpretation :D
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  • [23:03:18] <ag_melbourne> Good morning :) BBB and Jessie snapshot, I'm find a lot of re-learning, and some holes compared to Wheezy
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  • [23:10:15] <ag_melbourne> Hmm, not many people about...signing off
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  • [23:26:21] <GenTooMan> well true
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